Custom Fighters - Custom Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum banner

Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

12K views 98 replies 22 participants last post by  Poopie 
#1 · (Edited)
This thread is complementary to my build thread. I don't want to gum up work with talk of work.

The benefits of using hydrogen as a fuel source are very real. It combusts @ 9 times the rate of gasoline, and can be generated by electrolysis of water. Most HHO generators are used for fuel economy. They vary in sized, but generally they're about the size of a football, and give an estimated 15% increase in MPG.

When I asked why this kind of technology hasn't been used in vehicles, all of them, collectively, state that a HHO vehicle would be too light to survive on the road. The reduced weight needed to take advantage of hydrogen as a fuel source would leave people too vulnerable. Safety seemed to be the only thing preventing them from mass producing an automobile.

HHO generators sold on the market today are simple to install. (12V) energy from an electrical source (alternator/ battery) is drawn into flat, repeating POS/NEG electrode stack of stainless steel plates immersed in a solution of electrolyte enhanced (salt) water. This current causes the hydrogen molecules to separate from the water in a form of gas (bubbles). This gas collects and is rerouted to the air intake on vehicles, right after the sensors, in order to avoid a fucking temper tantrum being thrown by the CPU.

A blow through turbo will essentially eliminate my need to redirect and regulate the hydrogen gas to four individual carbs. The added HP of the turbo is just an added benefit. The Hydrogen introduced before the plenum would solve the air to gas mixture. Hydrogen is lighter than air, but I'm assuming that the movement of air will take care of that issue.

You could also further regulate a sustainable source of hydrogen from a pressurized canister of hydrogen gas.

This could evolve into bypassing the need for gas entirely if pressurized gas is used... Only issued is your riding on something that could make a really big boom if ruptured.

There are so many ways to go abouts this... Pros.... Cons...

let me hear it from you guys...
:D
 
See less See more
#2 ·
#5 ·
^ Agreed, it's ridiculous.
I don't understand the reasoning, but I'm also not a engineering student...

This is not what I'm going after though... I'm looking for a hybrid that lays down some cereal HP...
 
#7 ·
so that is a fuel cell, meaning its not an engine it generates electricity with out combustion. Cool tech. but not there yet.
With you bike i am not fallowing how you plan to utilize the turbo. Will it be functioning in the typical fashion, with hydrogen added when you are on boost, or is it serving some other purpose?
P.S. be sure to seal up every thing, hydrogen is sneaky and will try to escape.
EDIT: one other thing, the danger of blowing up is much smaller than you would expect, the hindenberg zeppelin disaster created a popular myth that hydrogen is to dangerous to be used in transportation. The hindenberg was painted with what nasa uses today as rocket fuel. The hydrogen did burn but its the rocket fuel paint that is to blame. I know someone who is in the shipping industry he said shipping hydrogen is much less hazardous than crude oil.
EDIT2:hydrogen mixed with oxygen -ie. hho- is highly dangerous in volume.
 
#9 ·
With you bike i am not fallowing how you plan to utilize the turbo. Will it be functioning in the typical fashion, with hydrogen added when you are on boost, or is it serving some other purpose?
Crack pot summary:
Most vehicles set up with an HHO generator direct the HHO gas into after the air filter and O2 sensor. The gas enriches the air and allows for a more uniform, and more combustible fuel:air mixture. Most engines these days have the technology to compensate for the positive change by reducing the amount of fuel injected, and greater MPG can be attained...

vehicles normally experience a 15 % increase in MPG when using a suplemental HHO generator... These generators optimum HHO output @ <= 1 LPM (Liter Per Min)...


Now, >> Take the same process, and apply it to a vehicle 1/10 the weight of a standard vehicle.... That 15% increase in MPG, could theoretically be increased to.... Well, we're still playing hypothetical... I'll find out... I'm looking at a HHO generator that outputs 1.8-2.0 LPM... That's more than double the output of the generators found in most vehicles today... I also have the advantage of manually adjusting fuel introduction via the carbs...

I'm planning on using the turbo as a standard car would use an air intake. Supplementing the turbo close to the intake so that the gas mixes with the air before it reaches my plenum. I'm going to reach more concentrated levels of HHO reaching the combustion chamber, because there won't be any way for it to escape the push of the turbo.

The benefits of HHO is that it also introduces an oxygen molecule to the equation, which will again augment the fuel air mixture...

I'm going to do the whole crawl, walk, run method. If I find that the supplemental HHO is successful in aiding my fuel economy and the turbo works as it would for it's intended HP gains, then it's just a matter of finding a generator that can increase the output of HHO... Eventually, this could lead to a fast as the fucking devil bike, that runs on water....

Fuck you BMW, I'll eat your engineers for fucking dinner... I got CF on my side.:fu:

Now, I'm just waiting for someone smarter than me to guide me along... So, anytime you engineering guru's want to step in and slap me around a lil.....
 
#10 ·
negative, strictly gasoline/ HHO mixture first, then possibly moving towards a full HHO combustion engine...

One possible negative to HHO...??? Is it more corrosive?
 
#12 ·
They said the same thing about gasoline engines.

It is a very explosive fuel. The only way that this issue comes into play is if I can't find a generator that supplies sufficient HHO, and I move to a compressed HHO gas. I could theoretically skip the whole HHO generator idea here and simply screw in a pressurized (regulated) tank of HHO, like a Co2 tank screws into a paintball gun... Hell, hydrogen cell vehicles being conceptualized today accomplish both creation and compression of HHO. Unfortunately, be it that the it's a motorcycle, space is something that I don't have...

I'm going to try the Generator first, then move on to this option if I cant get optimum HHO supplementation via the generator.
 
#17 ·
When are you looking at putting this in to production?
I'm getting the HHO generator before the end of the week. Currently shopping for the turbo, any suggestions on what size, model, brand, etc?.. Corky Bell says that shit don't matter, but I'm thinking a chinese piece of Ebay turd-o is probably a no-go.

I'm lost as far as what turbo will best suit my needs... So shoot me some pointers...
 
#14 ·
.... injecting fuel after the O2 sensor would be straight into the exhaust stream, BTW.... :D

also without any other catalyst or using a different method, straight electrolysis of water consumes more electrical energy than the hydrogen has in chemical energy (without a catalyst it takes as much energy to break the bonds as you gain from putting them back together and no process is 100% efficient) and that doesn't count the losses in generating the electricity in the first place...
 
#15 ·
.
also without any other catalyst or using a different method, straight electrolysis of water consumes more electrical energy than the hydrogen has in chemical energy (without a catalyst it takes as much energy to break the bonds as you gain from putting them back together and no process is 100% efficient) and that doesn't count the losses in generating the electricity in the first place...
I was going to say that, but it would have been 10X as long and confusing as hell. :D
 
#18 ·
This concept is somewhat above my head, but I believe that hydrogen will be our future fuel. Water is our #1 resource!

As far as the "more energy used to separate hydrogen from water than the energy the hydrogen produces"..... Is that electricity measured by our means today or is this a basic, electrochemical level of science? I know ethanol costs more than the power it produces but that's a whole different story, and ethanol sucks.

Carry on :knucks:
 
#19 ·
It's from a physics standpoint. The potential energy stored in the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen in water takes more energy to break than the thermal energy returned when you burn the separated gases.

In other words, if you don't run a catalyst, you're fighting an uphill battle.
 
#20 ·
In other words, if you don't run a catalyst, you're fighting an uphill battle.
Baking soda? Not sure which is the best chemical catalyst... I've heard everything from baking soda, to salt, vinegar, etc.... any suggestions?
 
#23 ·
I def appreciate and respect the wisdom in seeking out alternative fuel sources
Yeah dude,

I'm really excited about turbo charging said that fuel source... When I hear the word green I think GO.... not some "hacked" bush-hippie solar bike that has you sitting there questioning "that's it ???"...

If green energy can punch a fucking hole in the atmosphere @ 160+.... Then you got a lot of people's attention...

:shocker:
 
#31 ·
well to answer one question HHO = H2 + O so they are the same thing except when you split water you will get one atom of oxygen. The H2 compressed gas requires that you still pull air in to combust. the added O in HHO honestly will do nothing since you are pulling so much air anyway through carbs. To try and clarify the earlier question about energy loss i provide this, water + power to run HHO generator = say 10, HHO gas + spark = say 7, So you are never going to get 7 to equal 10 that is why H2 compressed gas is an option since someone already took water and made it HHO then took out the O. ...Ok did a quick little math here and came up with and someone correct me if im wrong the amount of energy stored in a gallon of H2 is 36.23 MJ gasoline is 128 MJ So first off you will need to burn alot more of it too keep up with gas. Say you still want to investigate? ok say $4 gallon for gas and the best price i found for bulk H2 was $1.50 gallon however you are still only looking at H2 producing 96.6 MJ for the same amount of money...I hope my math was right and this helped you some i think its an interesting concept but i am doubtful if you will see any gains in mpg or hp from just an HHO set up. sorry
 
#37 ·
well to answer one question HHO = H2 + O so they are the same thing except when you split water you will get one atom of oxygen. The H2 compressed gas requires that you still pull air in to combust. the added O in HHO honestly will do nothing since you are pulling so much air anyway through carbs. To try and clarify the earlier question about energy loss i provide this, water + power to run HHO generator = say 10, HHO gas + spark = say 7, So you are never going to get 7 to equal 10 that is why H2 compressed gas is an option since someone already took water and made it HHO then took out the O.
I'm aware of the LOT, and I'd never assume breaking them were possible, and I'd never put energy into trying.... I'm more or less tinkering with the idea of optimum efficiency using the two fuel sources together. I really do appreciate the explanation on HHO vs. H2...
Zach, while i dont know 100% of whats going on here(with HHO generators) there are a few things I know about the process. There are claims that go both ways...You use more energy to work an HHO generator than the energy you get. Well nothing is free and there are losses so this has to be true.

Look at the math behind it. People claim you can work an HHO generator with as little as 1.5V and 1amp. Well if you extrapolate that out at 12v you are looking at a minimum of 8amps and that wont be nearly enough to run through a high rpm bike engine, thats just whats required to break the bonds. An additional 10amp load on a bike is considerable and in order to produce enough hydrogen you will need probably 3x that(just a guess). If you look on your bike the only thing that requires a 30amp fuse is going to be your starter. I dont think a stock bike charging system could handle a 30amp draw for very long so you have a setup with diminishing returns.

The general setup for these basic generators rely on an electrode setup in a water bath. The current passed through the water releases the hydrogen. Well if you lean a bike over at any speed slower than probably 70 that water is going to creep and your electrodes will no longer be in a bath. The hydrogen is collected from the "air space" at the top of the container so you have a potential water suction issue where you could hydro lock the engine.

I dont think hydrogen is a valid answer since the majority of our global warming issues are from water vapor(from the ocean) the main bi-product of a hydrogen powered vehicle is water vapor.

I think a valid option would be either a small turbo diesel vegetable oil bike or a propane bike. I worked on a propane bike and i know the topic has come up a few times on this forum so there is some info out there.
I could see where you're coming from with the bubbler, but I think I can solve both of those issues dealing with the bath, and most definitely the possibility of hydrolock... Could augmenting the electrical system favor my production of HHO? I might need to start reworking the internals as well?

If I build to overcome these foreseen contingencies, is it fair to say it's doable? I know that it's going to take a great amount of work, troubleshooting, more work, etc... I'm not worried about that. I'm just looking an avenue of approach. Is there anything that tickles your imagination as far as if(s) or possible(s), where I could apply the try?

first: difference between HHO and H2.
A. If you try to store / compress hho it is very likely to explode, because it is at the perfect fuel air ratio. H2 can be stored safely because there is no oxygen present and it cant burn on its own.
B. HHO is actually H2, and O2, mixed together. -Two H2 for every one O2- .The difference between a H2 generator and an HHO generator is that the H2 generator keeps the H2 separate from the O2. -this means +, and- plates in the generator have to be farther apart so the bubbles don't mix.
second: as others have said running this system with no gasoline is a pipe-dream unless you use bottled H2 which may or may not be a benefit.
third: The more reputable suppliers, http://www.dry-cells.com/how-does-hho-work are selling real products and clearly state that the HHO is only improving the way in which the fuel burns. This may have important implications for your turbo in that hho is reputed to give a higher octane rating. As you add boost low octane fuels start pinging and poping (and breaking things), if you can get the right amount of hho you might not have to buy race gas to run high boost. which could save you $.
As you are working with a turbo and you will have a water reservoir you might want to look into water injection,http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html#answ it requires a special pump and injector nozzles, but is a very good way to get more power out of your turbo. Again it is helping your bike not blow up while on boost, the water is not burning etc.
Awesome help here barnicle! You're touching on something that is of great interest to me, and I've come across this topic a few times in my research... Higher octane levels... Again, if reworking the guts is in the cards, then I'm down
One thing to consider, (and I have been doing a LOT of research on this), is that a bike electrical system uses a ground shunt for all unused current, so anything you re-route to an HHO generator is not technically a loss, it's a re-use of energy you'd normally waste as heat. I've also been looking into power generation from wasted heat via the radiator and oil cooler, and using that as a source for the power to break the water, so you don't really operate at a net loss, you operate at a reduced net loss from total. You never violate the 3 basic laws of thermodynamics, which are:

1 - You can't win
2 - You always lose
3 - You don't even manage to break even

The HHO does have a flame effect on the burn in the cylinder by allowing a more thorough combustion of the fuel in the cylinder. Also a catalyst will increase the efficiency of the bond break (water is one of the strongest bonds there is) but in the end, all you manage to do is not lose quite as much. It's not a perpetual motion machine.

Compression of H2 is incredibly difficult due to it being a very small molecule and has the capability of sliding between the molecules of the vessel it's being compressed into, almost like catching water in a sieve. There is no such thing as real long-term storage of hydrogen in any useable terms. Real-time generation of gassified H is the holy grail of renewable energy, and now you see why.
Are there other way's to augment the electrical system, such as the possibility of a magnetic turbine that caresses the axles
I'm going to say that a bottle with bubbling water isnt going to save your engine if you run high boost and detonate. Might aswell put methanol in there and a direct line to a pump and to the intake manifold. Most octane boosters are made of kerosene and some petroleum distillates, they really dont increase the octane significantly (5th gear even did a video on them on a dyno). Then again, maybe the whole fuel system and engine needs some re-thinking if detonation is the problem.

Most hydrogen generator companies have just found a niche to market their stuff, people want to be green = sell them something to make them at piece of mind. Whenever its magnets on fuel lines, whenever its space metal rod you drop into your tank, whenever its magical additive that makes your engine oils have less friction, by clinging onto the engine parts... yadda yadda yadda. Just my two cents. When they claim hp and mileage in the same sentence, I smell a rat.
I don't think they've claimed higher HP, I'm just going on the explosive properties of HHO... I'm not having any issue with boost or detonation, I'm theoretically trying to grasp the possible benefits of running HHO, and then trying to attain them in practice...

Thanks guys, + Rep...
 
#32 ·
Zach, while i dont know 100% of whats going on here(with HHO generators) there are a few things I know about the process. There are claims that go both ways...You use more energy to work an HHO generator than the energy you get. Well nothing is free and there are losses so this has to be true.

Look at the math behind it. People claim you can work an HHO generator with as little as 1.5V and 1amp. Well if you extrapolate that out at 12v you are looking at a minimum of 8amps and that wont be nearly enough to run through a high rpm bike engine, thats just whats required to break the bonds. An additional 10amp load on a bike is considerable and in order to produce enough hydrogen you will need probably 3x that(just a guess). If you look on your bike the only thing that requires a 30amp fuse is going to be your starter. I dont think a stock bike charging system could handle a 30amp draw for very long so you have a setup with diminishing returns.

The general setup for these basic generators rely on an electrode setup in a water bath. The current passed through the water releases the hydrogen. Well if you lean a bike over at any speed slower than probably 70 that water is going to creep and your electrodes will no longer be in a bath. The hydrogen is collected from the "air space" at the top of the container so you have a potential water suction issue where you could hydro lock the engine.

I dont think hydrogen is a valid answer since the majority of our global warming issues are from water vapor(from the ocean) the main bi-product of a hydrogen powered vehicle is water vapor.

I think a valid option would be either a small turbo diesel vegetable oil bike or a propane bike. I worked on a propane bike and i know the topic has come up a few times on this forum so there is some info out there.
 
#33 ·
first: difference between HHO and H2.
A. If you try to store / compress hho it is very likely to explode, because it is at the perfect fuel air ratio. H2 can be stored safely because there is no oxygen present and it cant burn on its own.
B. HHO is actually H2, and O2, mixed together. -Two H2 for every one O2- .The difference between a H2 generator and an HHO generator is that the H2 generator keeps the H2 separate from the O2. -this means +, and- plates in the generator have to be farther apart so the bubbles don't mix.
second: as others have said running this system with no gasoline is a pipe-dream unless you use bottled H2 which may or may not be a benefit.
third: The more reputable suppliers, http://www.dry-cells.com/how-does-hho-work are selling real products and clearly state that the HHO is only improving the way in which the fuel burns. This may have important implications for your turbo in that hho is reputed to give a higher octane rating. As you add boost low octane fuels start pinging and poping (and breaking things), if you can get the right amount of hho you might not have to buy race gas to run high boost. which could save you $.
As you are working with a turbo and you will have a water reservoir you might want to look into water injection,http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html#answ it requires a special pump and injector nozzles, but is a very good way to get more power out of your turbo. Again it is helping your bike not blow up while on boost, the water is not burning etc.
 
#34 ·
One thing to consider, (and I have been doing a LOT of research on this), is that a bike electrical system uses a ground shunt for all unused current, so anything you re-route to an HHO generator is not technically a loss, it's a re-use of energy you'd normally waste as heat. I've also been looking into power generation from wasted heat via the radiator and oil cooler, and using that as a source for the power to break the water, so you don't really operate at a net loss, you operate at a reduced net loss from total. You never violate the 3 basic laws of thermodynamics, which are:

1 - You can't win
2 - You always lose
3 - You don't even manage to break even

The HHO does have a flame effect on the burn in the cylinder by allowing a more thorough combustion of the fuel in the cylinder. Also a catalyst will increase the efficiency of the bond break (water is one of the strongest bonds there is) but in the end, all you manage to do is not lose quite as much. It's not a perpetual motion machine.

Compression of H2 is incredibly difficult due to it being a very small molecule and has the capability of sliding between the molecules of the vessel it's being compressed into, almost like catching water in a sieve. There is no such thing as real long-term storage of hydrogen in any useable terms. Real-time generation of gassified H is the holy grail of renewable energy, and now you see why.
 
#35 ·
I'm going to say that a bottle with bubbling water isnt going to save your engine if you run high boost and detonate. Might aswell put methanol in there and a direct line to a pump and to the intake manifold. Most octane boosters are made of kerosene and some petroleum distillates, they really dont increase the octane significantly (5th gear even did a video on them on a dyno). Then again, maybe the whole fuel system and engine needs some re-thinking if detonation is the problem.

Most hydrogen generator companies have just found a niche to market their stuff, people want to be green = sell them something to make them at piece of mind. Whenever its magnets on fuel lines, whenever its space metal rod you drop into your tank, whenever its magical additive that makes your engine oils have less friction, by clinging onto the engine parts... yadda yadda yadda. Just my two cents. When they claim hp and mileage in the same sentence, I smell a rat.
 
#36 ·
Thanks guys, you've given me some great feed back to chew on. Next set of questions inbound...
 
#38 ·
also just another note.... electrolysis of water for hydrogen production is so inefficient that only a single digit % of commercially produced H2 is made this way (4 or 5% IIRC) most of the rest is made from cracking hyrdocarbons... yes that's right most of this "clean" H2 comes from fossil fuels too

http://www.interstatetraveler.us/Reference-Bibliography/Bellona-HydrogenReport.html

also the actual flame temp. of H2 combustion is higher than gasoline, despite the lower energy density. i really don't think i'd want to mix a hotter burning fuel than the engine was designed for and also run higher combustion chamber pressures (from the turbo)... another effect of the higher combustion temp is an increase in production of oxides of Nitrogen, also considered a pollutant... not that these small inefficient electrolysis devices produce enough H2 to make a real difference in an automotive sized engine anyway...
 
  • Like
Reactions: shift1313
#39 ·
I'm reading through this great link... Thanks...

NOX? Hmmm... Article also states that Hydrogen derived by electrolysis of water is more economical than using fossil fuel...

This bit of information doesn't negate it as a efficient fuel source at all either...
 
#40 ·
from the article
Steam reforming of natural gas is currently the cheapest way to produce hydrogen, and accounts for about half of the world’s hydrogen production.
and the reaction process

The formula for the chemical reaction is:
CH4 + H2O -> CO + 3H2

And for the following “shift reaction”:
CO + H2O -> CO2 + H2
(CH4 being Methane, the primary component of natural gas)

also using them both as a gas, and measuring by volume the natural gas has 3x the energy per liter and gasoline has about another 1000x the energy per liter (there's a reason we use it gasoline has over 3x the energy per liter of liquid H2, and is stable at STP when the H2 would be boiling off rapidly))....

now of course thats compared to H2 and CH4 at STP, rather than compressed....

but say you were generating 2 LPM of total output from your device.. hell lets say you were actually getting 2 LPM of H2 (because i'm too lazy to figure out the relative volumes of the H2 and the O2 :D ) that would be about .022 MJ, the same volume of CH4 ~ .073....

mostly a rambling post.... but i'm too distracted to other crap to straighten it all out right now :)
 
#42 ·
There are some dry cell generators claiming 5-6 LPM... This might be a better system than a bubbler... No water, corrosion, and less energy loss...
 
#43 ·
Dry cells are not quite dry, just "dryer", but that is still an advantage.
Don't listen to those who are scared of this technology, there are hho forums with numerous people playing around with this stuff, a quick read tells you that none of these guys are scared of ruining there engine. Its not like nitrous where it will burn up your valves if you lean it out.
Edit: you still want the "safety bubbler",or some type of flashback arrestor, even with the dry cell, it keeps electrolyte out of the engine and stops back-fire episodes from reaching (and damaging) you hho cell.
 
#44 ·
Dry cells are not quite dry, just "dryer", but that is still an advantage.
Don't listen to those who are scared of this technology, there are hho forums with numerous people playing around with this stuff, a quick read tells you that none of these guys are scared of ruining there engine. Its not like nitrous where it will burn up your valves if you lean it out.
I'm doing this regardless...:D

I'm just taking pointers from the engineers, mechanics, and tradesmen to tighten my shot group... People can argue against it, I'm expecting it, and much of it carries a lot of validity... I just feel, from a personal standpoint, that you don't really know shit is until you've been there and touched it with your bare hands... I'm quite sure that many of these individuals giving input are way more seasoned to what works and what doesn't in the world of physics. I personally have not seen any project of this nature on the net, so why not give it a try... From the gathered opinions so far what's the worst that could happen? absolutely no gain in MPG/HP and worst case scenario a fucked engine... I'm sure they don't mind helping out a guy who wants to test the waters...

If it does in fact go tits up, then they can say I told you so... Meh... I'll just move on and roll with the punches...
 
#45 ·


kinda cool vid... their obviously working with compressed h.....
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top