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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-03-2011, 03:48 PM   #31
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

Yeah, they're licensed bosch injectors, but most likely made by NipponDenso and have ND connectors. Similar connectors are found in toyotas, which are basically a ND version of bosch injection.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-03-2011, 09:26 PM   #32
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

Just bought an EX650 wiring harness on ebay for $28.00 delivered!

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-04-2011, 08:18 AM   #33
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

Nice.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-07-2011, 01:16 AM   #34
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

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Originally Posted by Flashmn View Post
Yeah, they're licensed bosch injectors, but most likely made by NipponDenso and have ND connectors. Similar connectors are found in toyotas, which are basically a ND version of bosch injection.
I searched and found an ND source, but the terminology made it hard to find what I was looking for. It was formatted for people who already knew what they wanted. I also don't want a pigtail, I want crimp connectors for the fewest splices possible. I'm going to be using placing this unit inside a sealed box with econoseal (weatherproof) bulkheads so the entire unit has no moisture intrusion. I sent a message requesting info with pics of the injectors, but didn't hear anything as soon as I'd hoped, so I ordered a cheapo wiring harness I can cut up for right now.

Assembled the circuit board today. I took a pic with it next to a AA battery for scale.



The entire unit is only about 2/3 the size of a deck of cards. I have enough injector IC's and darlington transistors to build a second unit as well, so I'll order some SMD resistors and capacitors to reduce the footprint a little. The only zeners I can get with the wattage rating I need are axial lead, but maybe I can get a smaller diameter leads next time so I can mount thru-hole instead of the cobbled mess I have now.

I'll rig up a connection for the TB injectors tomorrow and test with my benchtop 12VDC power supply. If I hooked it up right and don't smoke it, I'll start testing for a closed loop soon. Gen I is only going to be a rudimentary lookup table style system like the current ECU's have in place so I can get some data for closed loop Gen II. I still need a trim pot for idle adjust setpoint, and a circuit to monitor the TPS. The EX650 TB's also have an internal butterfly operated by a stepper, so I'll ahve to figure out what the hell to do with that too somewhere along the line. I have a feeling it's a choke for warming the bike up, but I could also be completely wrong.

I also decided to try and add a serial LCD display with an external speaker I had laying around to it. Not working out quite as well as I'd hoped. I did manage to get it to display random characters and squeal loudly. Not what I was shooting for, but it beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-07-2011, 01:44 AM   #35
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

some of the dual butterfly TBs on FI bikes were an attempt to emulate the behavior of a CV carb, or at least to prevent bog from sudden vacuum loss on sudden throttle openings...


on one hand it still seems like you're trying to reinvent the wheel with some of the hardware that's already out there, but on the other hand, i'm sure your learning a SHIT-TON about FI and engine management, so that makes it all worth while...

interested to see the final product, and possibly scematics and code, if you aren't trying to be supersecretsquirrel, lol

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-07-2011, 12:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

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Originally Posted by VT420 View Post
some of the dual butterfly TBs on FI bikes were an attempt to emulate the behavior of a CV carb, or at least to prevent bog from sudden vacuum loss on sudden throttle openings...
Interesting. I'll have to look into the stepper and see what I can do with that. I'll probably have to recycle code from the stepper drivers on my 3D printer project, which has stalled due to not being home lately.

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Originally Posted by VT420 View Post
on one hand it still seems like you're trying to reinvent the wheel with some of the hardware that's already out there, but on the other hand, i'm sure your learning a SHIT-TON about FI and engine management, so that makes it all worth while...
Maybe, maybe not. More like improving on a version already in place. The Microsquirt is out, but I've read a LOT of the forums on thier site and people talk about it like it's the same thing as the 3D printer DIY: A series of questionable parts with no discernable roadmap for successfully integrating it into a running system without a LOT of heartache. Worst of all, the schematics are completely uninformative. You need to know what color wire goes where, not what the wire does. It's like EFI for dummies, only they don't get you out of the dummy stage. You use THIER parts, THIER schematics, THEIR boards, and then scour the forums for answers until you play EFI legos and hope for the best. The worst part is that it's mostly car-specific, so you get answers related to a specific brand of car or a specific engine type, not something more broad-based.

My tack on it is a clean-slate redo from the ground up. Since I'm a controls and automation engineer for a living, and spent part of 2 years designing and building combustion and ignition systems for industrial ovens, I bring a lot of real-world experience into A/F ratios and fire control feedback. Honeywell makes a fire control feedback system using A/F and temperature as the variables that I've worked with that works like a dream, but it's a huge set of modules and there is no way in hell it's going to fit on a bike. It would be workable in a car, but never on a bike. I'm modelling my system on that, with a full ignition sequence, warm up phase, everything in the final version.

The best part is you can use open-source parts available through Newark, and I have a total of about $75 in the entire electronics kit. $30 for the processor, $5 for the shield, $20 in electronics parts, some time, assorted wire and shrink tube, and the software programming environment is free. The Megasquirt kits cost about $600, bare bones. You still need to buy throttle bodies, sensors, gauges, and in the end, it's still geared towards cars, so the footprint is huge and not very limited-space freindly.

The TB's would have to be sourced bike to bike anyway, unless someone came up with a generic TB system with attachment flanges. I can't find anything "generic" anywhere, and I did a lot of looking. Sudco was my last hope. The sensors for closed loop (which only the PC-V uses correctly, and for that you need to have a specific OEM EFI bike, and STILL have tuned) must be sourced, and the megasquirt only uses it as feedback for the tuner, not for the control system. If I get this working correctly, the feedback will tune the controller on the fly to maintain the correct design A/F with a trim adjust based on criteria I haven't completely defined as of yet. I need to see how it works first, but my off the cuff take is that I need to maintain about a 14.7:1 ratio with a temporary richening/leaning trim based on a high rate of change of the throttle. Go WOT and it pumps a little more, snap it shut, it leans a bit so you don't flood it. It's your basic cascaded PID loop control, with the A/F as the main feedback point and the throttle ROC as the cascade level 1.

I've been reading The Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook while I do this to gain more insight into what I'm doing too, so even if I DO reinvent the wheel, I'll have a much deeper understanding of the system as a whole, and I'm not out a bankful of money, so it all works out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VT420 View Post
interested to see the final product, and possibly scematics and code, if you aren't trying to be supersecretsquirrel, lol
All the base schematics are already available on the LM1949N data sheet. That's the IC injector controller I chose to use. The controller code will be up when I get the Gen I version running, along with a full B.O.M. for everything I used.

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i would rather have "fear my ass" primer than "fuk my ass" purple
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you two fags need to give up the charade and go camping already

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When a shark appears in the area sea lions will leave the water immediately. Luckily there are no tigers on the shore waiting for him, or he wouldn't know what the fuck to do.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-07-2011, 03:35 PM   #37
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

I thought it would be good reading to get the book mentioned but almost had a heart attack when i saw the price. $112!!!

I saw google ebook for $10, guess ill buy that...

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-07-2011, 04:23 PM   #38
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

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I thought it would be good reading to get the book mentioned but almost had a heart attack when i saw the price. $112!!!

I saw google ebook for $10, guess ill buy that...
My local chapters has it for $34 hard copy...

But like you I found the e-book for $10 a better deal.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-07-2011, 04:33 PM   #39
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

Oh and as far as Microsquirt costing $600... no it cost me $420 shipped.

And it's actually pretty versatile. I am impressed that you can do what you can with electronics but for me I would not have a chance in hell of putting all those components together in my own ECU.

I got my FZR683 to idle on the microsquirt pretty easily. Now that I have proven that it will run as a concept with fuel only control. Now I am going to go full sequential and control the timing as well.

Microsquirt may be the lego of ECUs as you put it but it can handle the parameters of a motorcycle engine quite easily and has excellent software available for it to program fuel and ignition maps.

For me learning how to create these maps and various things is a challenge enough without actually having to learn all the electronic componentry and engineering that goes into that.

There is no argueing that your method is a hell of a lot less expensive though.

I have about $800 into my efi set up with all parts including a new gas tank with high pressure fuel pump, the ecu, TBs, etc etc.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-07-2011, 05:49 PM   #40
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Default Re: GS500E Fuel Injection

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Originally Posted by Freestyle72 View Post
Oh and as far as Microsquirt costing $600... no it cost me $420 shipped.

And it's actually pretty versatile. I am impressed that you can do what you can with electronics but for me I would not have a chance in hell of putting all those components together in my own ECU.

I got my FZR683 to idle on the microsquirt pretty easily. Now that I have proven that it will run as a concept with fuel only control. Now I am going to go full sequential and control the timing as well.

Microsquirt may be the lego of ECUs as you put it but it can handle the parameters of a motorcycle engine quite easily and has excellent software available for it to program fuel and ignition maps.

For me learning how to create these maps and various things is a challenge enough without actually having to learn all the electronic componentry and engineering that goes into that.

There is no argueing that your method is a hell of a lot less expensive though.

I have about $800 into my efi set up with all parts including a new gas tank with high pressure fuel pump, the ecu, TBs, etc etc.

Congrats on getting it to idle! Where did you get the TB from? Mine is an EX650, but that was only because it was what the original guy I found in Europe was using. Supposed to be a pretty easy fitup.

For pricing, I got the $595 right off the website from DIYautotune on the PNP system. I agree, if you're not at least moderately familiar with electronics and microcontroller programming, this would be just about impossible without having a pre-built system to start with. If I get mine doing what I intend it to do, no need for fuel maps, but that's going to be a few iterations on down the road. I'm still trying to get the stupid base circuit to fire correctly. They don't exactly explain a lot in the data sheet, and it leaves a lot open to trail and error.

BTW, I got the book for $25 at Barnes and Noble or Borders or something. Don;t recall, but the price tag is still on it.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonfedd View Post
i would rather have "fear my ass" primer than "fuk my ass" purple
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you two fags need to give up the charade and go camping already

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Gaulke
When a shark appears in the area sea lions will leave the water immediately. Luckily there are no tigers on the shore waiting for him, or he wouldn't know what the fuck to do.
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