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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 09:31 AM   #31
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

well to answer one question HHO = H2 + O so they are the same thing except when you split water you will get one atom of oxygen. The H2 compressed gas requires that you still pull air in to combust. the added O in HHO honestly will do nothing since you are pulling so much air anyway through carbs. To try and clarify the earlier question about energy loss i provide this, water + power to run HHO generator = say 10, HHO gas + spark = say 7, So you are never going to get 7 to equal 10 that is why H2 compressed gas is an option since someone already took water and made it HHO then took out the O. ...Ok did a quick little math here and came up with and someone correct me if im wrong the amount of energy stored in a gallon of H2 is 36.23 MJ gasoline is 128 MJ So first off you will need to burn alot more of it too keep up with gas. Say you still want to investigate? ok say $4 gallon for gas and the best price i found for bulk H2 was $1.50 gallon however you are still only looking at H2 producing 96.6 MJ for the same amount of money...I hope my math was right and this helped you some i think its an interesting concept but i am doubtful if you will see any gains in mpg or hp from just an HHO set up. sorry
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 09:40 AM   #32
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

Zach, while i dont know 100% of whats going on here(with HHO generators) there are a few things I know about the process. There are claims that go both ways...You use more energy to work an HHO generator than the energy you get. Well nothing is free and there are losses so this has to be true.

Look at the math behind it. People claim you can work an HHO generator with as little as 1.5V and 1amp. Well if you extrapolate that out at 12v you are looking at a minimum of 8amps and that wont be nearly enough to run through a high rpm bike engine, thats just whats required to break the bonds. An additional 10amp load on a bike is considerable and in order to produce enough hydrogen you will need probably 3x that(just a guess). If you look on your bike the only thing that requires a 30amp fuse is going to be your starter. I dont think a stock bike charging system could handle a 30amp draw for very long so you have a setup with diminishing returns.

The general setup for these basic generators rely on an electrode setup in a water bath. The current passed through the water releases the hydrogen. Well if you lean a bike over at any speed slower than probably 70 that water is going to creep and your electrodes will no longer be in a bath. The hydrogen is collected from the "air space" at the top of the container so you have a potential water suction issue where you could hydro lock the engine.

I dont think hydrogen is a valid answer since the majority of our global warming issues are from water vapor(from the ocean) the main bi-product of a hydrogen powered vehicle is water vapor.

I think a valid option would be either a small turbo diesel vegetable oil bike or a propane bike. I worked on a propane bike and i know the topic has come up a few times on this forum so there is some info out there.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 11:11 AM   #33
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

first: difference between HHO and H2.
A. If you try to store / compress hho it is very likely to explode, because it is at the perfect fuel air ratio. H2 can be stored safely because there is no oxygen present and it cant burn on its own.
B. HHO is actually H2, and O2, mixed together. -Two H2 for every one O2- .The difference between a H2 generator and an HHO generator is that the H2 generator keeps the H2 separate from the O2. -this means +, and- plates in the generator have to be farther apart so the bubbles don't mix.
second: as others have said running this system with no gasoline is a pipe-dream unless you use bottled H2 which may or may not be a benefit.
third: The more reputable suppliers, http://www.dry-cells.com/how-does-hho-work are selling real products and clearly state that the HHO is only improving the way in which the fuel burns. This may have important implications for your turbo in that hho is reputed to give a higher octane rating. As you add boost low octane fuels start pinging and poping (and breaking things), if you can get the right amount of hho you might not have to buy race gas to run high boost. which could save you $.
As you are working with a turbo and you will have a water reservoir you might want to look into water injection,http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html#answ it requires a special pump and injector nozzles, but is a very good way to get more power out of your turbo. Again it is helping your bike not blow up while on boost, the water is not burning etc.

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 11:43 AM   #34
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

One thing to consider, (and I have been doing a LOT of research on this), is that a bike electrical system uses a ground shunt for all unused current, so anything you re-route to an HHO generator is not technically a loss, it's a re-use of energy you'd normally waste as heat. I've also been looking into power generation from wasted heat via the radiator and oil cooler, and using that as a source for the power to break the water, so you don't really operate at a net loss, you operate at a reduced net loss from total. You never violate the 3 basic laws of thermodynamics, which are:

1 - You can't win
2 - You always lose
3 - You don't even manage to break even

The HHO does have a flame effect on the burn in the cylinder by allowing a more thorough combustion of the fuel in the cylinder. Also a catalyst will increase the efficiency of the bond break (water is one of the strongest bonds there is) but in the end, all you manage to do is not lose quite as much. It's not a perpetual motion machine.

Compression of H2 is incredibly difficult due to it being a very small molecule and has the capability of sliding between the molecules of the vessel it's being compressed into, almost like catching water in a sieve. There is no such thing as real long-term storage of hydrogen in any useable terms. Real-time generation of gassified H is the holy grail of renewable energy, and now you see why.

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 11:46 AM   #35
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

I'm going to say that a bottle with bubbling water isnt going to save your engine if you run high boost and detonate. Might aswell put methanol in there and a direct line to a pump and to the intake manifold. Most octane boosters are made of kerosene and some petroleum distillates, they really dont increase the octane significantly (5th gear even did a video on them on a dyno). Then again, maybe the whole fuel system and engine needs some re-thinking if detonation is the problem.

Most hydrogen generator companies have just found a niche to market their stuff, people want to be green = sell them something to make them at piece of mind. Whenever its magnets on fuel lines, whenever its space metal rod you drop into your tank, whenever its magical additive that makes your engine oils have less friction, by clinging onto the engine parts... yadda yadda yadda. Just my two cents. When they claim hp and mileage in the same sentence, I smell a rat.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 02:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

Thanks guys, you've given me some great feed back to chew on. Next set of questions inbound...
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 04:41 PM   #37
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingDesire View Post
well to answer one question HHO = H2 + O so they are the same thing except when you split water you will get one atom of oxygen. The H2 compressed gas requires that you still pull air in to combust. the added O in HHO honestly will do nothing since you are pulling so much air anyway through carbs. To try and clarify the earlier question about energy loss i provide this, water + power to run HHO generator = say 10, HHO gas + spark = say 7, So you are never going to get 7 to equal 10 that is why H2 compressed gas is an option since someone already took water and made it HHO then took out the O.
I'm aware of the LOT, and I'd never assume breaking them were possible, and I'd never put energy into trying.... I'm more or less tinkering with the idea of optimum efficiency using the two fuel sources together. I really do appreciate the explanation on HHO vs. H2...
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Originally Posted by shift1313 View Post
Zach, while i dont know 100% of whats going on here(with HHO generators) there are a few things I know about the process. There are claims that go both ways...You use more energy to work an HHO generator than the energy you get. Well nothing is free and there are losses so this has to be true.

Look at the math behind it. People claim you can work an HHO generator with as little as 1.5V and 1amp. Well if you extrapolate that out at 12v you are looking at a minimum of 8amps and that wont be nearly enough to run through a high rpm bike engine, thats just whats required to break the bonds. An additional 10amp load on a bike is considerable and in order to produce enough hydrogen you will need probably 3x that(just a guess). If you look on your bike the only thing that requires a 30amp fuse is going to be your starter. I dont think a stock bike charging system could handle a 30amp draw for very long so you have a setup with diminishing returns.

The general setup for these basic generators rely on an electrode setup in a water bath. The current passed through the water releases the hydrogen. Well if you lean a bike over at any speed slower than probably 70 that water is going to creep and your electrodes will no longer be in a bath. The hydrogen is collected from the "air space" at the top of the container so you have a potential water suction issue where you could hydro lock the engine.

I dont think hydrogen is a valid answer since the majority of our global warming issues are from water vapor(from the ocean) the main bi-product of a hydrogen powered vehicle is water vapor.

I think a valid option would be either a small turbo diesel vegetable oil bike or a propane bike. I worked on a propane bike and i know the topic has come up a few times on this forum so there is some info out there.
I could see where you're coming from with the bubbler, but I think I can solve both of those issues dealing with the bath, and most definitely the possibility of hydrolock... Could augmenting the electrical system favor my production of HHO? I might need to start reworking the internals as well?

If I build to overcome these foreseen contingencies, is it fair to say it's doable? I know that it's going to take a great amount of work, troubleshooting, more work, etc... I'm not worried about that. I'm just looking an avenue of approach. Is there anything that tickles your imagination as far as if(s) or possible(s), where I could apply the try?


Quote:
Originally Posted by barnicle View Post
first: difference between HHO and H2.
A. If you try to store / compress hho it is very likely to explode, because it is at the perfect fuel air ratio. H2 can be stored safely because there is no oxygen present and it cant burn on its own.
B. HHO is actually H2, and O2, mixed together. -Two H2 for every one O2- .The difference between a H2 generator and an HHO generator is that the H2 generator keeps the H2 separate from the O2. -this means +, and- plates in the generator have to be farther apart so the bubbles don't mix.
second: as others have said running this system with no gasoline is a pipe-dream unless you use bottled H2 which may or may not be a benefit.
third: The more reputable suppliers, http://www.dry-cells.com/how-does-hho-work are selling real products and clearly state that the HHO is only improving the way in which the fuel burns. This may have important implications for your turbo in that hho is reputed to give a higher octane rating. As you add boost low octane fuels start pinging and poping (and breaking things), if you can get the right amount of hho you might not have to buy race gas to run high boost. which could save you $.
As you are working with a turbo and you will have a water reservoir you might want to look into water injection,http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html#answ it requires a special pump and injector nozzles, but is a very good way to get more power out of your turbo. Again it is helping your bike not blow up while on boost, the water is not burning etc.
Quote:
Awesome help here barnicle! You're touching on something that is of great interest to me, and I've come across this topic a few times in my research... Higher octane levels... Again, if reworking the guts is in the cards, then I'm down
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey View Post
One thing to consider, (and I have been doing a LOT of research on this), is that a bike electrical system uses a ground shunt for all unused current, so anything you re-route to an HHO generator is not technically a loss, it's a re-use of energy you'd normally waste as heat. I've also been looking into power generation from wasted heat via the radiator and oil cooler, and using that as a source for the power to break the water, so you don't really operate at a net loss, you operate at a reduced net loss from total. You never violate the 3 basic laws of thermodynamics, which are:

1 - You can't win
2 - You always lose
3 - You don't even manage to break even

The HHO does have a flame effect on the burn in the cylinder by allowing a more thorough combustion of the fuel in the cylinder. Also a catalyst will increase the efficiency of the bond break (water is one of the strongest bonds there is) but in the end, all you manage to do is not lose quite as much. It's not a perpetual motion machine.

Compression of H2 is incredibly difficult due to it being a very small molecule and has the capability of sliding between the molecules of the vessel it's being compressed into, almost like catching water in a sieve. There is no such thing as real long-term storage of hydrogen in any useable terms. Real-time generation of gassified H is the holy grail of renewable energy, and now you see why.
Quote:
Are there other way's to augment the electrical system, such as the possibility of a magnetic turbine that caresses the axles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashmn View Post
I'm going to say that a bottle with bubbling water isnt going to save your engine if you run high boost and detonate. Might aswell put methanol in there and a direct line to a pump and to the intake manifold. Most octane boosters are made of kerosene and some petroleum distillates, they really dont increase the octane significantly (5th gear even did a video on them on a dyno). Then again, maybe the whole fuel system and engine needs some re-thinking if detonation is the problem.

Most hydrogen generator companies have just found a niche to market their stuff, people want to be green = sell them something to make them at piece of mind. Whenever its magnets on fuel lines, whenever its space metal rod you drop into your tank, whenever its magical additive that makes your engine oils have less friction, by clinging onto the engine parts... yadda yadda yadda. Just my two cents. When they claim hp and mileage in the same sentence, I smell a rat.
I don't think they've claimed higher HP, I'm just going on the explosive properties of HHO... I'm not having any issue with boost or detonation, I'm theoretically trying to grasp the possible benefits of running HHO, and then trying to attain them in practice...

Thanks guys, + Rep...
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 05:38 PM   #38
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

also just another note.... electrolysis of water for hydrogen production is so inefficient that only a single digit % of commercially produced H2 is made this way (4 or 5% IIRC) most of the rest is made from cracking hyrdocarbons... yes that's right most of this "clean" H2 comes from fossil fuels too

http://www.interstatetraveler.us/Ref...genReport.html

also the actual flame temp. of H2 combustion is higher than gasoline, despite the lower energy density. i really don't think i'd want to mix a hotter burning fuel than the engine was designed for and also run higher combustion chamber pressures (from the turbo)... another effect of the higher combustion temp is an increase in production of oxides of Nitrogen, also considered a pollutant... not that these small inefficient electrolysis devices produce enough H2 to make a real difference in an automotive sized engine anyway...

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 07:16 PM   #39
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

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also just another note.... electrolysis of water for hydrogen production is so inefficient that only a single digit % of commercially produced H2 is made this way (4 or 5% IIRC) most of the rest is made from cracking hyrdocarbons... yes that's right most of this "clean" H2 comes from fossil fuels too

http://www.interstatetraveler.us/Ref...genReport.html

also the actual flame temp. of H2 combustion is higher than gasoline, despite the lower energy density. i really don't think i'd want to mix a hotter burning fuel than the engine was designed for and also run higher combustion chamber pressures (from the turbo)... another effect of the higher combustion temp is an increase in production of oxides of Nitrogen, also considered a pollutant... not that these small inefficient electrolysis devices produce enough H2 to make a real difference in an automotive sized engine anyway...
I'm reading through this great link... Thanks...

NOX? Hmmm... Article also states that Hydrogen derived by electrolysis of water is more economical than using fossil fuel...

This bit of information doesn't negate it as a efficient fuel source at all either...
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 08-02-2011, 07:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: Hydrogen Turbo; Conceptualization...

from the article
Quote:
Steam reforming of natural gas is currently the cheapest way to produce hydrogen, and accounts for about half of the world’s hydrogen production.
and the reaction process

Quote:
The formula for the chemical reaction is:
CH4 + H2O -> CO + 3H2

And for the following “shift reaction”:
CO + H2O -> CO2 + H2
(CH4 being Methane, the primary component of natural gas)

also using them both as a gas, and measuring by volume the natural gas has 3x the energy per liter and gasoline has about another 1000x the energy per liter (there's a reason we use it gasoline has over 3x the energy per liter of liquid H2, and is stable at STP when the H2 would be boiling off rapidly))....

now of course thats compared to H2 and CH4 at STP, rather than compressed....

but say you were generating 2 LPM of total output from your device.. hell lets say you were actually getting 2 LPM of H2 (because i'm too lazy to figure out the relative volumes of the H2 and the O2 ) that would be about .022 MJ, the same volume of CH4 ~ .073....

mostly a rambling post.... but i'm too distracted to other crap to straighten it all out right now

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