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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-04-2019, 04:48 PM   #1
make that thing forkless
forks and valves... WTF?
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Default RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

Forkless is back!

Before I get into the new project, first a quick personal update. I didn't post much last year as I was super busy with a second job. I was hired by an e-moto startup to do the chassis design work for their electric motorcycle project. To date, we've completed a beautiful prototype, but unfortunately the company has now run low on funds and doesn't want to show the bike publicly yet. I was hoping I could share some pics, but those will need to wait.

In the little bit of spare time I've had, a little bit of work has been done to get one of my AK-1s back on the road, and I've gotten my RZ250R out of moth balls and running again. Got two other RZ350 that are getting partial restorations, but nothing really too crazy.

As for some older projects... FOSMC II (Snap-together Ducati) is still on hold. AK-1 (prototype 1) full restoration rebuild is also on hold. And my RZ500 project is still on hold, but I look at it screaming back at me every weekend.

Okay, on to the current new project... Over the years I've had lots of people ask me about building custom RZ350 frames. Some are serious, some less serious, but so far none have made a commitment. None the less, its a project that has always been of high interest (see sketches below). Last year, I decided that I wanted my next Dirtbag Challenge build to be based on an RZ350 so I began sketching some ideas for a chassis with a crazy girder fork design with low mounted dual shocks (sketches below). So kind of a theme here in that for the past few years I've made lots of sketches of semi-trellis framed RZs.

Fast forward to last week and out of the blue a friend sends me this picture of SXR600 race bike with a one-off trellis frame. Holy shit... thats got so many similarities with the frame I want to build! So that was the kick I needed to decide to make this a reality. The plan is to use this year's Dirtbag Challenge as a prototype build (minus the crazy front end), then maybe add the front end for next year's DBC.

More specifically, there are three major flaws with the RZ350 frames that I hope to address. First is the 80s era geometry. At 26 degrees rake and relatively short swingarm there is potential to greatly improve the overall layout. Second is the rear suspension design. Again, the 80s era design relies heavily on motocross technology of the era and results in a linkage geometry that is overly progressive. Lastly is the physical location of the suspension linkage which hangs very low. This is a problem when routing expansion chambers. A design with the shock and linkage positioned higher will result in much better clearance with the pipes.

I think its funny that there have been many attempts by many people to improve RZ frames, but most just end up adding un-needed braces which just adds weight without addressing the real issues in need of improvement.



design sketches for past few years:

[IMG]20190303_182636 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190303_182704 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190303_182929 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190303_183018 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190303_181020 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190303_181127 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190303_181149 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]




This is the SRX600 that is acting as inspiration (not my bike):

[IMG]DSC_0368 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]


[IMG]SRX_Racer2 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]



Stay tuned for more...
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-05-2019, 01:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-05-2019, 04:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

A forkless build!! feck yeah!

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Originally Posted by mcantar View Post
They can ban, outlaw, and restrict whatever they please. I'll keep doing whatever the fuck I'm doing, because I don't really give a shit. The only thing that will change is that I'll be breaking their made up bullshit rules while doing it, and I'm comfortable with that.

My Build http://www.customfighters.com/forums...d.php?t=118649
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-05-2019, 04:33 PM   #4
make that thing forkless
forks and valves... WTF?
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

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Originally Posted by XxGRYMMxX View Post
A forkless build!! feck yeah!
Hey, I represent that comment
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-10-2019, 08:58 PM   #5
make that thing forkless
forks and valves... WTF?
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

Before I get into the next progress update, I want to make a comment about units of measure... professionally I've preferred to design in metric units (as apposed to "stupid units" as one of my co-workers refers to inches). That said, I grew up looking at specs in motorcycle magazines where everything was given in inches. Because of that history, I tend to identify some elements of motorcycle geometry more by inch units rather than millimeters... so bare with me if I tend to use both in the conversation that follows.

This week and for the next few weeks the main task at hand is getting the design into CAD (Solidworks). This process always begins with an overall geometry sketch. This will drive the construction of the model. So things like wheel base, rake and trail, swingarm angle, etc. are laid out and major components will later be mated parametrically to this initial sketch.

I have a few generic parts already modeled from past project such as R1 forks, triple clamps and clip-ons, some generic tires, and an R6 shock. So I went ahaead and added those to the model. Last week I began the initial modeling of a swingarm, although it isn't needed yet.

The main goal today is to get the rear suspension linkage geometry worked out. I've decided to use a TZR250 3XV swinagrm for my inspiration and to use the linkage geometry. There are several reasons why I chose the 3XV swingam... first, its long at almost 23 inches. As mentioned in my first post, one goal is to move the engine a bit farther forward and utilize a longer swingarm.

Second, its a relatively wide swingarm at 238mm (inside width) and slightly asymmetric (more space on the sprocket side). This will allow for a good variety of wheels to fit. I did a check fits (see photo) with a CBR600 F2, SV650, and a Husky supermoto wheel. All had ample space to fit, although the CBR wheel is pushed all the way to the left and the SV wheel will use a GS500 cush-drive hub.

Third, the linkage location is very high. A stock RZ350 shock linkage dangles around 5 inches below the swingarm. The 3XV linkage is maybe an inch and a half below the swingam. This frees up around 4 inches for expansion chamber clearance if (most likely) I decide on GP style routing (left side crosses under to exit on right side).

Here are a few of my target numbers for geometry (some are subjetc to change)

- wheel base: 56" +/- 1" (variable with chain adjustment and rake angle)
- rake angle: 22.5* +/- 1.5* (I plan to use an adjustable head assembly with adjustable rake angles of 24*, 22.5*, 21*)
- swingarm angle: 8*-9* (with unladen weight of bike)

Most of today's CAD exploration was to model the 3XV linkage and start getting an idea of how the geometry with play into rising rate cures and final shock (spring rate) selection. So far without a lot of refinement it looks like the 3XV linkage has a fairly flat rising curve. So it's not overly progressive. This is also an advantage over the stock RZ350, so I'm very happy with what I'm seeing.

Okay, enough talking, here are a few pics...

[IMG]20190302_155417 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190302_160108 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190311 image 1.2 rz350 frame assembly 2019 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190311 image 1.05 rz350 frame assembly 2019 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20190311 image 1.1 rz350 frame assembly 2019 by andbike, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-11-2019, 03:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

Oh yea. I'm in.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-11-2019, 12:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

isn't 9 degree swingarm angle fairly flat? you know way more than I do about geometry, just thinking to when I've had Gerry Piazza measure bikes for me.

A steering damper dampens steering oscillations. If it starts to leak, it may become a steering dampener. There's no such thing as a dampner.

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-11-2019, 02:59 PM   #8
make that thing forkless
forks and valves... WTF?
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
isn't 9 degree swingarm angle fairly flat? you know way more than I do about geometry, just thinking to when I've had Gerry Piazza measure bikes for me.
I kinda remember we had this discussion once before (maybe over on BARF?). I recall the conversation going something like... "blah, blah, blah, Gerry Piazza said, discussion over". I think you said that Gerry measures swinagrm angle with the bike completely un-weighted or lifted off the ground... which has relevance to nothing. Anyway, 8-9 degrees is good from my experience.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-11-2019, 03:24 PM   #9
make that thing forkless
forks and valves... WTF?
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

Ha ha, no worries. I was the one who ended the conversation once GP's name was mentioned. I have some opinions which I'll keep to myself.

Back to your question... for base line swingarm angle I like to make the measurement with the bike on the ground (weight of the bike supported by the suspension, but without rider). Using this method, 8-9 degrees seams to work well. Maybe a little more on a bike with softer suspension. Again, this is just the base line that I like, and then adjust from there.

Now is see you deleted your last post... no worries. I'm happy to continue the discussion. Its all good.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-12-2019, 12:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: RZ350 the 2019 re-frame

Stoked! All about some of my favorite bikes!

"Practice till the hot brass burns the cheeks of your ass" F. Bob Chow
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