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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-16-2012, 10:24 PM   #31
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InIspeed3 View Post
Ive always found that high heat and faster produces less warpage than low and slow, something about how long your actually in the weld with heat... just imho. where as with With Tig brazing it seems you can go low and fast because of how easily the bronze melts at low heat.
That's the way is see it and was taught. Get in, get it done, and get out. More heat for faster travel speeds means you do less damage at the weld and in the HAZ. Less warpage and less altering of the grain structure/ metalurgical properties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InIspeed3 View Post
just found some interesting stuff... it appears you may be correct about the size of your electrode...



"As a consequence of heat distribution, for the same current one has to select in DCEP a larger electrode size than what is proper for DCEN.

Due to the electrode limited current carrying capacity (about 1/10 of DCEN), DCEP is used only for welding thin sheet metal where low current is sufficient. For most other applications welded with higher currents, DCEN is selected if welding other materials than aluminum or magnesium (see below)"
So we are talking maybe 40A max for a 1/8 tungsten on DCEP. That could he a problem in its self right there, for me at least, because my home torch can't take anything larger than 1/8. I'll have to do some experimentation and see exactly how much current a 1/8 tungsten can carry. I want to say that my prior welds were somewhere in the ballpark of 60-80 amps, but that's a rough foot pedal guess because I always set my machine high.

I can't really see this last picture posted real well on my phone, but the description with it gives me a good idea. Talking about the base metal mixing in the puddle. That's something I found out myself. At first I thought it was a contamination issue. Then it seemed more like an excessive heat issue, which I think it is in a way. If your in the weld to long, its actually melting some of the base metal, which mixes in the filler puddle. Being how the 2 metals are so different, you can actually see little specs of base metal stuck in the bead. Giving the bead a dirty look.

From my readings your not supposed to melt the base metal at all.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-19-2012, 05:49 PM   #32
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I agree that if you're puddling the steel its too hot. I'm thinking you should be backing off the pedal as the work comes up to temp. Usually a bead starts at higher amps but then backs off pedal or speeds up travel or both as it progresses.
Brazing should be the same right?
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-31-2012, 12:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

Alright, so I started playing around with tiging bronze this weekend. I was experimenting with all sorts of settings and stuff. I definitely don't have it dialed in yet. Here's some of what I'm working with, some observations, and some questions.

Miller syncro 250, 3/32 electrode, 3/32 sili braze filler rods, 15 cfm argon, welding on 4130 tubes.

AC: The arc was jumping all around for me, but when it got in line the puddle flowed nicely

DCEN: this is where I practiced most. I'm probably still running too hot, but I had a hard time welding if I wasn't melting the parent material a little. After re-reading this thread, I'll probably turn up the argon flow, turn down the amps, and maybe try "laying the wire" more to get the puddle going.

DCEP: this gave me problems. I'm not sure if something is wrong with my machine, if the settings were off, or if it's just operator error. I turned the amps down so I didn't fry my tungsten. The arc was kinda pop n crackn start n stoppn. I'll go back and try turning the AC balance all the way to clean, see if that helps.

Any ideas about the settings? Where should the AC balance be at? what is the arc control dial for?

I noticed a lot of different color from the beads while I was practicing. On the beads where I was too hot the bead was more silver like the steel. I would brush the welds with a stainless wire brush (which may have been contaminated) while the bead was still hot and it would turn different colors depending on how hot. Should I wait until weld is completely cooled before brushing?

Back to the drawing board.
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-31-2012, 03:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

Good on you for trying it out. I have found many uses for it here lately at work, especially when the machinists hand me finished thin wall parts to weld to thick without distortion. Of course I still am running DCEN because I know it works.

You are right about getting it to hot and the weld turning silver in color. Had that happen myself a couple times and if you brush it then the welds turned a purple like color. An idea would be to let the welds that you get to hot, cool almost completely before wire brushing. I don't know if the proper color will come back to its original tint, but it shouldnt be able to turn purple. I personally have a habit of brushing shortly after finishing my welds and don't see an issue with the welds layed in properly

I thought arc control was a Lincoln only? I know that's all I have ever seen that knob on. Either way its the force of the arc or amount you dig into the base metal
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-01-2018, 10:53 AM   #35
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

I know, ancient thread, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has tried this on stainless. There are some cosmetic parts I'd like to make, and preferably leave uncoated, where this would look very nice. I could do a stainless root and then cap with silicon bronze or something if I have to, but straight silicon bronze would be more convenient.

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-01-2018, 11:45 AM   #36
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

I wanted to see the pics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimestaK View Post
Been thinking alot about tube frames, their designs, materials, and the welds alot here lately, and how I can apply it to a frame I want to build. I have had this idea in my mind to TIG weld a frame and clear coat it, leaving the HAZ still colored ( the blueing ). Just a raw look. Last night I remembered a there was a thread on here where TIG Brazing was breifly mentioned. Found it this morning but nobody went into detail about doing it. Searching the net isnt coming up with specifics for doing so on tubing, just alot of topics in recards to cast.

Here is 2 pictures of what I'm talking about on a Harris frame. Stole these pics from the thread I found




If I can figure out a few things and practice a few times, I'm sure I could duplicate that look. Plus clear coating a bare steel frame leaving those joints seen would be bitchin

So my questions are-

What is the right choice filler metal that is applicable in a structural application like this?

Is it DCEN just like steel welding?

Is the parent metal melted any like in welding or is it not like in brazing?

And are these joints a full TIG braze joint or is there some fusion welding done under the braze joint?
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-01-2018, 11:46 AM   #37
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

Pics!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimestaK View Post
Went and picked up a pound of Radnor 3/32 Silicon Bronze filler today at lunch break. Didn't have much lunch break left after chatting with the guy at the supply store. But I did manage to get a bead layed in. Took some scrap 1/8" plate that was laying on the floor, gave it a quick buff, and lit up.

This is the result



DCEN, 3/32 red tungsten sharpened to a point, gas lense with 15-20 cfh, and machine set to 120 AMPs ( never even came close to full pedal though), and a tight arc. I let the sides wet before adding filler. The bead welded alot like aluminum, very soft. About half way thru the bead I picked up some contamination and a couple more spots after that also. Its hard to see it good in the picture but the contaminents wont come off after the bead cools. So first lesson is the metal needs to be extremely clean.

I then spun the piece around and switched over to AC. Basically the same setup as before. Right off the bat it was a bit*h as the arc was all over the place. I made about 1" of weld and decided that wasn't the right choice. Next lesson, NO AC

I cut the weld in half, etched the sides, and you can clearly see that no fusion actually happens. Took one half of the T joint and put it in the vise. Was able to bend the piece almost all the way over before the weld tore from the sides. Didn't get any pictures though.

Tomorrow, I'm going play around with bead ripple spacing, tungsten points, and arc length to see if I can get the bead to resemble anything like the ones on that bike above. I think a blunt nosed tungsten and a slightly longer arc should give the results I'm after. I'll try and take an actual camera to get some better pictures. My phone isnt the best
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-01-2018, 11:48 AM   #38
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

More pics!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimestaK View Post
Here is the piece I had cut in half a week or so ago



I havn't had all that much time here lately to practice very much. I did try a heavy blunt nosed tungsten, but I found that I was in the weld far too long. One thing I have found was if you hang around to long the weld looses it bright color. Wire brushing does bring back the lost color some but its a dull color instead.

I also tried increasing to bead spacing more. What I found there was that with the 3/32 filler, I was having a concave bead. Tried pushing more filler per ripple but then I was back to being in the weld to long. Going to have to get some 1/8 filler for that

In this next picture I was pushing alot of filler per ripple. In the begining of the bead its clear thats what I was doing. But the interesting part is towards the end of the bead once the metal warmed up a little. Notice how the weld sags?



The contamination problem has been solved. Most of the problem seemed to be in the filler metal. A quick cleaning with some scotch brite and I havn't had an issue since. Other than those prior times when I got the puddle to hot, because it was in those beads also.

Decent bead pic



All in all, I'm very happy I decided to try this stuff out. I have found quite a few good applications where this stuff will come in handy and work has already picked up a few pounds to have on hand. As for if I feel confident enough using this stuff, solely as the filler holding a bike frame together that I plan to beat the living hell out of. I'm still not 100% sold. I'm sure it would work and be fine as long as proper attention was placed on good fitup and your beveling. But like I said, I'm not 100% and wont be fully confident, which will limit how I ride. So what I'm currently thinking is that I will lay a small root pass using typical ER70s filler and cap that with the silicon bronze. Where the silicon bronze acts more like a gusset
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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-01-2018, 11:51 AM   #39
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

Thanks for redoing the pics, how did you get them to work?

Here's an imgur album with them: https://imgur.com/a/aw9Bt

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Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 03-01-2018, 09:46 PM   #40
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Default Re: Anybody know about TIG Brazing?

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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Thanks for redoing the pics, how did you get them to work?

Here's an imgur album with them: https://imgur.com/a/aw9Bt
Been waving my magic wand.

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