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PSA: Why we're all gonna die early, reason #4582

2K views 38 replies 13 participants last post by  XxGRYMMxX 
#1 ·
Stainless steel can kill you.

OSHA said:
Hexavalent chromium [Cr(VI)] is one of the valence states (+6) of the element chromium. It is usually produced by an industrial process. Cr(VI) is known to cause cancer. In addition, it targets the respiratory system, kidneys, liver, skin and eyes. Chromium metal is added to alloy steel to increase hardenability and corrosion resistance. A major source of worker exposure to Cr(VI) occurs during "hot work" such as welding on stainless steel and other alloy steels containing chromium metal.
Now OSHA can generally fuck right off for the most part, but the subject came up today in a welding group I'm on and a dozen or so people there claim to currently have medical issues (cancer of something-or-other, kidney failure, etc.) that were diagnosed as being from HC exposure.

The basics of it is that once absorbed into the body it enters the cells through chemical channels it's similar enough to to travel on (sulfates), then after losing a few electrons (valence) it starts dicking with your DNA and promoting mutations and shit.


Of note, it's mentioned that hotworking stainless will put HC into the air but neither the OSHA page nor any other source I found goes into specifics, like what temperature the metal needs to reach or if different alloys influence this on a deeper level than chromium content (does the presence of other elements and/or the quantities of certain ones cause a more or less pronounced release of HC?).


I've been making shit with metal professionally for the better part of a decade, and no fab shop I've ever been in has known of this. First time I've heard of it.



Now surely this isn't any worse than breathing in asbestos dust from grinding wheels, long term UV light exposure from welding arcs, fumes from welding through various cleaners and coatings, zinc poisoning from welding galvanized shit, getting shrapnel embedded in you from an exploding cutoff wheel, or flying down the road at triple digit speeds with an engine between your legs. But it's at least nice to be aware of it.
 
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#4 ·
So do you have any other information? Like how much is actually released during hot work. How do the Chromium atoms become hexavalent (transitional state right? from the heat?). I am assuming it becomes a micro particle size to become airborne so you can inhale it. Also isn't the amount of chromium dependent on the alloy, for example 304 vs 316 (My machinery handbook is at work).
I thought you were supposed to exhaust any welding fumes anyway. For GMAW and OXY it's pretty obvious but SMAW and GTAW still make O3 which you aren't supposed to inhale either.
 
#6 ·
Nope, wasn't able to find any more info on it (in all fairness I haven't spent much time on the subject after the initial bit of research and posting). There's a wealth of info on what's happening in your cells, but not so much on what's happening in the metal. I have the same questions myself though.
From what layman's knowledge I have of the applicable physics, I'd assume the higher energy state (of the heat) is pushing electrons off whatever element is most readily able to lose them, and it would seem chromium is the most readily able to receive them... not sure what happens to push it into the air, but it might just be a result of the welding and grinding itself (i.e., simply heating the stainless with an oven or torch to an equal temp might not actually release the HC into the air).
And yeah, different alloys have slightly different compositions. You might enjoy looking over this chart...




As for the welding fumes and exhaust... you're not wrong. You are "supposed" to wear an appropriate respirator or have an appropriate exhaust system in place for any welding process on any material, especially MIG. In practice, the only time I've EVER seen such things used are when there's galvanized steel being welded on and it's usually a pretty laughable attempt at it.
One shop I worked in did galvanized here and there, and the welders would wear those disposable construction-type dust masks (which they had to buy themselves) while everybody else in the shop just kept on doing their thing and didn't know there was anything to be concerned about.


The same people that report on this stuff probably do it after eating a gut full of artery clogging McDonalds and smoking a cigarette. I know this is for real, but we all know that inhaling ANY type of chemical fume is bad. We probably have a better chance of dying on a bike than we do from being exposed to chromium. Especially metal working on the hobby level.

Respirators. Wear them.

For sake of hypocrisy, this was typed with tobacco in my mouth ;)
Yeah, and I did say something to that effect in the OP. But I figure it's good to at least know about this shit so we can be as informed as possible about the choices we make.
 
#5 ·
The same people that report on this stuff probably do it after eating a gut full of artery clogging McDonalds and smoking a cigarette. I know this is for real, but we all know that inhaling ANY type of chemical fume is bad. We probably have a better chance of dying on a bike than we do from being exposed to chromium. Especially metal working on the hobby level.

Respirators. Wear them.

For sake of hypocrisy, this was typed with tobacco in my mouth ;)
 
#8 ·
welding brake cleaner creates phosgene gas. lucky all you did was puke. there was a phosgene release at a DOW? chem plant a number of years ago, the worker died an awful death drowning in his lungs over the course of a few days.

i've also heard welding stainless creates toxic fumes not sure if its hex chrome, i usually run into that at electroplating clean up sites. It's not suprising most shops don't know all of this, most don't adhere to osha regs, let alone have a dedicated H&S person. Your also supposed to have fall protection over 6', hearing protection over 85dba (2 sets over ~100 i think), safety glasses under face shields, blah blah blah.
There are regs for just about everything. when you work for companies that base bids on recordable injuries and H&S culture you start paying attention.
 
#9 ·
welding brake cleaner creates phosgene gas. lucky all you did was puke. there was a phosgene release at a DOW? chem plant a number of years ago, the worker died an awful death drowning in his lungs over the course of a few days.

i've also heard welding stainless creates toxic hex chrome. It's not suprising most shops don't know all of this, most don't adhere to osha regs, let alone have a dedicated H&S person. Your also supposed to have fall protection over 6', hearing protection over 85dba (2 sets over ~100 i think), safety glasses under face shields, blah blah blah.
There are regs for just about everything. when you work for companies that base bids on recordable injuries and H&S culture you start paying attention.
I got fucked over phosgene not long ago when an evaporator coil blew up and I couldn't get out of the room fast enoug. It's the craziest feeling in the world to be standing outside, yet completely unable to "breathe". You read about this shit, but until your actually chemically drowning you have no idea what it's like. It's bizarre. I felt like shit for days. I can't imagine what that poor guy that actually died felt like.

I added an extra cautionary step to my daily routine that costs me 15-20 min each day. That shit won't happen to me or my partner ever again.

Fuck chemicals.
 
#12 ·
https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA_FS-3647_Welding.pdf

the publication has a number of relevant codes from 29cfr1910 that you can google, that mainly deal with permissible exposure limits and control measures, i don't think it says anything more than "welding stainless produces hex chrome" in regards to how it converts.

most of you guys should probably be on a monitoring program (baseline and yearly physicals) to track the affects of being exposed to fumes and particulates. and have measures to control the exposure (ventilation, or filtration).

from the article:
What is in welding fume?
Metals
Aluminum, Antimony, Arsenic, Beryllium, Cadmium, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Iron, Lead, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silver, tin, Titanium, Vanadium, Zinc.
Gases
• Shielding—Argon, Helium, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide.
• Process—Nitric Oxide, Nitrogen Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide, Ozone, Phosgene, Hydrogen Fluoride, Carbon Dioxide.

Welding and Hexavalent Chromium
• Chromium is a component in stainless steel, nonferrous alloys, chromate coatings and some welding consumables.
• Chromium is converted to its hexavalent state, Cr(VI), during the welding process.
• Cr(VI) fume is highly toxic and can damage the eyes, skin, nose, throat, and lungs and cause cancer.
• OSHA regulates worker exposure to Cr(VI) under its Chromium (VI) standard, 29 CFR 1910.1026 and 1926.1126.
• OSHA’s Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) for Cr(VI) is 5 µg/m3 as an 8-hour time-weighted average.
 
#13 ·
most of you guys should probably be on a monitoring program (baseline and yearly physicals) to track the affects of being exposed to fumes and particulates. and have measures to control the exposure (ventilation, or filtration).
I used to be. It was a part of the CWE/CRAW certification process that my old company put me thru. Not mandated, but well worth the preventative costs in their eyes
 
#14 ·
#18 ·






:doh:

Good luck with that. I've been doing this shit for a long, long time, and I still don't get people that don't protect their eyes. I've driven more than a few people to the hospital to get shit removed from their eyes in shop related accidents where the entire conversation on the way there was boiled down to a few phrases every single time, "I didn't think of protection", "It was just a quick cut", and the best one, "This has never happened before". :(

Safety glasses ranks right up there with a helmet or a seat belt. Not gonna elaborate on how I really, truly feel about people that use neither, but I can assure you it would start some shit if I did. Your freedom (idiocy in this case) shouldn't fuck my day up, but sure as the sun rises and sets, it never fails to do so when someone thinks they are above the laws of physics and could never be a victim of, "shit happens".
 
#20 ·
:confused:

Preventing debris in your eyes = living in fear?



I knew I shouldn't have replied in the first place. Anyone that isn't completely brilliant like Mongoose, preserve your eyes, damage from abrasives doesn't just heal up and go away, it turns into scar tissue and over time destroys your vision. Not to mention how totally unprofessional it is to work with any power tools without guards and other protective measures.

Less than $2...
https://www.harborfreight.com/safety-glasses-clear-99762.html

The nation average for removing a foreign body in the cornea of the eye is about $450...



You are totally free to make whatever decisions, and take whatever risks you want to though, not my eyes, or my life. As for taking it to the full extreme with race suits and "atgatt nazi" shit, you are clearly set in your ways and don't care to hear anyone say different to your lifestyle. Just because you can't be convinced to take a level of precaution doesn't mean others don't care. :speechless:
 
#27 ·
damage from abrasives doesn't just heal up and go away, it turns into scar tissue and over time destroys your vision.
Not just abrasives, sometimes its the idiot drilling your eye to remove said debris. My vision is nothing like it used to be.

Welding galvanized can and will make you sick I you breath the fumes directly and enough of them. Called Metal fume fever or galvanic poisoning. Its a lot like the flu, hits hard and fast, but is temporary and far as I know leaves no lasting effects. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. Guy at work welds it every day and doesn't get sick. I however seem to get sick every time im lucky enough to weld it

The reason most shops don't know about Hexavalent Chromium in my opinion is because most welders don't take welding any farther than melting metal. Most welders Ive known and worked with are actually very uneducated in their trade. Somebody told them to do this this way or do that that way and it works, so why change that. Screw educating or understanding the science behind it.

As far as hobby welding, I cant see any of this being an issue. Just keep you face outa the fumes and your golden.
 
#24 ·
I've drilled, welded, ground, and hammered things in the most idiotic, stupid, unprotected fashions possible. My dumb shit self decided that after drilling a few holes in a cast hammer head's handle, instead of continuing to clean out the hole where the handle was adhesived in, I tossed a pressing tool into my 20 ton and went to town until there was a very, very loud "bang" and two separate pieces of hammer head were across the shop from each other. How I didn't get hit, I'll never know.

Made an undertail for the turbo bike the other evening, grabbed the grinder to clean up edges and didn't toss on my clears, first touch of the disk to the aluminum and something must have bounced off of somewhere but it hit me in the eyelash, I shut off the grinder, and went and found a pair of those $1.59 harbor freight safety glasses I have about 5 pairs of floating around. Even I get into bad habits, and I would rather advocate the utmost safety, even if I, or anyone else doesn't do it all the time. It's just best to keep it in the front of your mind. Wasn't an attack at all on Mongoose either, they just happened to bring up the topic and I ran with it.

There is also no helmet law here in my state. When riders I know show up with no eye protection, or they have a dark shield on their helmet and the sun is beginning to set, I send 'em off with a pair of clears begging them to not damage their eyes and crash, they happily put them on and give a few rev's before pulling out of the driveway, just a little bit safer in the grand scheme of things. Can't ride without being able to see where you're going.
 
#26 ·
You guys don't know overkill until you've worked on an msha site. Honk twice to back up, once for forward, parking break and chocks, double containment, monthly checks on all electrical, dosimeters for sound and dust, always wearing gloves.
Other remediation sites: lel, organic vapor, ch4, h2s, co monitoring. Safety glasses under the face shield. Tyvek suits taped to your boots and gloves, respirators or supplied air.
Can't use knives anymore either, scissors or a fish knife, oh and max one person can lift solo is 40lbs.
 
#35 ·
I think technically I started it, but I didn't throw anybody under the bus. Just called out Mongoose' proud of no safety gear attitude. I don't agree. Do what you want but not taking simple steps to protect something that can't be replaced is dumb in my opinion. I think we're all adult enough to handle this difference of opinion, yeah? No hard feelings.
 
#36 ·
i dont think proud is the right word.. nor did i condone/advocate it... just simply stated something..

hell i took a grinder away from a co worker the other day as he was cutting shit which i felt was wrong/dangerous.. i suppose i shoulda just let it explode into his face as i'm such a proud retarded anti safety guy..

but w/e at the end of the day... ill do me and you'll do you..
 
#37 ·
i dont think proud is the right word.. nor did i condone/advocate it... just simply stated something..

hell i took a grinder away from a co worker the other day as he was cutting shit which i felt was wrong/dangerous.. i suppose i shoulda just let it explode into his face as i'm such a proud canadian guy..

but w/e at the end of the day... ill do me and you'll do you..
silly canuck.
 
#39 ·
I use safety gear in the shop for everything andf I have spares to give to people who wander over to see whats going on. Got a wire from a wire wheel stuck in my face just under my eye once and it changed my rather lax attitude about safety glasses right around. Also had sparks burn me on more than one occasion using a grinder/cut off wheel so gloves and a full face mask for when that bastard comes out. And fuck non-leather gloves... My snap-on impact gloves melted to the top of my finger under the spark spray when I was cutting some exhaust up. That fucking hurt.
 
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