Custom Fighters - Custom Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum banner

angled frame slugs

5K views 40 replies 11 participants last post by  Junkie 
#1 ·
are there angled frame insert slugs out there folks? plenty of straight ones with differing diameters but wonder if there was like a 20 degree bend slug? cheers.
 
#5 ·
i did think the easiest solution would be to bend the tubing but thought i would ask the question. however, on that subject...would you guys advocate bending pipe at home. i am only looking at 20 degrees for instance and don't have a pipe bender. was thinking about the sand filled tube bending method or is that a bit too ghetto to be safe?

cheers lads.
 
#9 ·
Using slugs also make it easier to align the parts and produce a welded part that looks like one solid piece (allowing you to safely grind the weld down). It may even be necessary for strength in some applications. I'd wager if converting a Hog to a hard tail, slugging the connections is a legit requirement; vibration could fatigue crack anything less.

It may just have passed on from there as "the right / best way to do it" even if overkill in most cases.
 
#10 ·
Hardtail a Harley or Triumph using slugs at the welds for strength... same as when you rake or de-rake the frame in the frame down tubes. Not over-kill at all. Also as Sebwiers stated this method will allow you to safely grind down the welds for aesthetic reasons.

So for a sub-frame well... If your a big-un like myself, I would use slugs.

My .02
Beez
 
#16 ·
Forget MIG, learn TIG and you'll be far happier.

I also second Yan's assessment... normal, easily obtainable slugs and putting the bend in the tube will be the best route.
 
#18 ·
TIG can be used to weld anything that can be welded. you need DC for steel vs AC for aluminum but all the TIGs I've seen that do AC also do DC (not all DC machines do AC though)

advantages: looks nicer (if you're good), stronger, can weld anything

disadvantages: more difficult, slower
 
#19 ·
Tig are a steeper learning curve and are at at least 2-3x the initial cost of a MIG, in my experience. TIG's also have consumables that aren't particularly pricey, but if you find yourself needing a tungsten or whatnot on the weekend and no shops are open- your work is done. Once accidental drop or bump of the TIG torch can have you needing to replace a tungsten and a cone. A handful of MIG tips is a few bucks and will last for years. I can't remember the last time my MIG needed a new tip. It's been10 years or longer.

The slower speed of the TIG also results in burning up a LOT more gas vs a MIG, which can get expensive and very annoying running back and forth to exchange cylinders.

If you plan to weld lots of aluminum, don't think twice and grab a TIG. Period. You can weld aluminum with a MIG, but it ain't easy, cheap or very practical. Otherwise,just welding steel, you can build confidence and skills much quicker and cheaper on a good MIG and then step up to a TIG later.

I have both and grab my MIG 99% of the time I'm welding steel. The TIG is slow, fussy about prep, and costly to operate. I can glue shit together with the MIG while I'm fiddling getting the TIG set up and running. Even though probably 75% of my welding is done by MIG, I use almost three times as much gas per year in my TIG. At $65 per cylinder.
 
#20 ·
Even though probably 75% of my welding is done by MIG, I use almost three times as much gas per year in my TIG. At $65 per cylinder.
That's just because you're slow.


I have a few thoughts on this...

A good TIG welder can run around 70% the speed of a MIG welder.
But really, speed shouldn't be a huge concern for anybody here. None of us are running production shops and tracking parts-per-hour, in this space it's about quality over quantity IMO. If a weld takes 10 minutes instead of 5, but looks way better... so what?

You can usually get away with running a bit less gas flow than with MIG. The weld heat is more concentrated and the part shouldn't be getting as hot as with other welding processes, and the slower travel speed means you have direct gas coverage over the specific area for longer.

Also re. speed... you have basically zero cleanup. No spatter to scrape/grind off, nothing catching on fire, etc. so the overall time spend from prep to cleanup is pretty close.

TIG allows for things like fusion welding where you don't use filler. Not always appropriate, but sometimes a good option and will save you the cost of filler if you are worried about that.

Less consumable costs, because less consumables. TIG cups are non-consumable vs. MIG cups which do wear down from repeated spatter and clean-up. Electrodes (tungsten) don't wear unless you fuck them up by dipping them or running too hot for the size, vs. MIG electrodes which wear out from burnback and just friction. The only actual consumables you have with TIG are the filler and the gas.
Not breaking shit is pretty easy too... just make a nice littler holder to hang your torch on and itll be nice and out of the way. But yes, tungsten is a brittle metal and TIG cups are class or ceramic, so they aren't as agreeable to being used as a hammer as a MIG gun is.

The learning curve is steeper, but not insurmountable by any means. Look at all the goons that have figured it out... if we can do it so can you. The thing about it is that TIG is a proper skill, while a trained monkey can run a MIG.

TIG isn't picky about weld prep. Materials are. You can weld picky materials with TIG, which is why it gets that rep.
With mild steel specifically, quality vs. cleanliness is a product of the filler rather than the process. Most mild steel filler you'll find for TIG is ER70-S2, most wire you see for MIG is ER70-S6. The S6 has more silicon and manganese, which helps the puddle flow better and more importantly helps carry contaminants out of the weld (the silicon does this, it's the glass stuff that develops on top of your weld). Buy some S6 filler rod or just use some lengths of MIG wire and your mild steel TIG weld will be as un-picky about prep and cleaning as your MIG is.

TIG can weld:
- mild steel
- stainless steel
- cast iron & cast steel
- aluminum
- titanium
- Inconel
- Hastelloy
- magnesium
- ceramics
- etc.
It also opens up the world of TIG brazing. You can join any metal to any other metal this way, even if they aren't weldable alloys.

MIG can weld:
- mild steel
- stainless steel, but not very well and only IF you buy a full spool of stainless filler
- aluminum, IF you have a push-pull gun and the right machine
Can also kinda-ish weld cast iron and cast steel, but not very well and it WILL break eventually unless you have special filler wire.



Get a TIG.
 
#21 ·
some cast steels are perfectly weldable with MIG but "cast steel" encompasses a wide range of materials

I'm surprised at your statement of 70% the travel speed, I would've guessed more like 1/3 to 1/2 in most cases. this of course has a big impact on gas consumption.

I agree that cups last forever if you don't throw them around, and tungstens last a VERY long time. a 1/16 tungsten costs a couple bucks and unless you're really awful you won't manage to go through it in a solid day's welding... and once you're better, it'll be way less than that. not enough cost to worry about vs gas (the big one), filler, power, etc.

for MIG to do stainless and have it stay stainless you need the right gas too, which is way more money than most gasses


I agree that the big one is the learning curve: with an hour or two of training, someone good with their hands can lay down somewhat tolerable MIG. the same with TIG will take at least several times as much training.
 
#22 ·
some cast steels are perfectly weldable with MIG but "cast steel" encompasses a wide range of materials

Generally speaking, castings really need a filler with a high nickel content. I've used 308L in a pinch. Yes, you can MIG it, just doesn't usually hold up too well.


I'm surprised at your statement of 70% the travel speed, I would've guessed more like 1/3 to 1/2 in most cases. this of course has a big impact on gas consumption.

I mean it's heavily dependent on the job of course... fitup, joint type, position, etc. But yeah, it's not that crazy of a number. Most people run too slow with TIG.

I agree that cups last forever if you don't throw them around, and tungstens last a VERY long time. a 1/16 tungsten costs a couple bucks and unless you're really awful you won't manage to go through it in a solid day's welding... and once you're better, it'll be way less than that. not enough cost to worry about vs gas (the big one), filler, power, etc.

for MIG to do stainless and have it stay stainless you need the right gas too, which is way more money than most gasses

You're right, I forgot about the gas. Same with aluminum. You'll want straight argon for both... most MIG tanks are filled with C25 (75% argon/25% C02). Expect to pay 1.5-2x the cost for straight vs C25.

I agree that the big one is the learning curve: with an hour or two of training, someone good with their hands can lay down somewhat tolerable MIG. the same with TIG will take at least several times as much training.

I'd say getting the basics down is pretty close to the same between both of them. The difference is with MIG that's all there is, with TIG you've got a lot of finesse and muscle memory to figure out to get from basics to making pretty welds.
..
 
#23 ·
lots of people MIG stock LS exhaust manifolds for turbo applications and I rarely hear of problems, but I'm sure there are also plenty of alloys where it won't work for shit

I thought stainless MIG generally involved a trimix gas, but haven't done it myself. I don't see *that* much of a cost difference between C25 and Argon: the latter is maybe 20% more expensive. It's the trimix, with helium, that's expensive.
 
#24 ·
thanks for the comprehensive responses guys. in all likelihood i may not be welding much beyond the current slow build. most likely going to use only for under tray, wiring and battery box...the odd bracket. i think if i were going to be into this for the long run then i would go with TIG but as i am only going to use it a handful of times maybe MIG is winning out? then the question is going for a new rig...about £170 or going for a used example with varying prices. hmmm....
 
#25 ·
at that budget I'd 100% go used.

I picked up my Lincoln 175HD, with a gas bottle, for $225. anything you can get new for that price will be awful quality, and then you'll need to buy/rent a bottle too.
 
#29 ·
@remfanuk buy used, no question. Zero reason to be buying new, you'll be far better off getting a better used machine than a shitty new one.
 
#36 ·
i am struggling to find tube at the usual UK retailers (RSm metals4u, metal mania)...so for the frame slugs i am looking at using tubing which is what came from the factory. so, the top rail is 3mm wall thickness and would take an outside diameter of 28mm. the bottom rail/support is 2mm wall thickness and needs to be 24mm outside diameter. are these odd sizes?

could slightly larger outside diameter tube be slit to reduce its diameter or will that just fuck its strength up?

any other sources you UK guys can point me towards please? any other advice appreciated. thanks
 
#37 ·
it worth looking into pipe instead of tube. i have found both the XJ i did a few years back and the bandit the OEM metal used was closer match to pipe than tube, for inserts then you can use tube. example pipe is 25mm ( pipe is measured ID) tube 25mm (measured OD) works well
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top