angled frame slugs - Page 3 - Custom Fighters - Custom Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum

Go Back   Custom Fighters - Custom Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum > Technical Section > Heavy Metal

Heavy Metal Anything to do with welding, bending and fabricating things from metal goes in here.

CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum > angled frame slugs

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-09-2019, 08:38 PM   #21
Junkie
re-tarded
CF Addict
Junkie's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 06:32 AM
Location: Alameda, CA
Posts: 1,176
Flip Offs: 3
Flipped Off 0 Times in 0 Posts
Junkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to all
Fighter of the Month 
Default Re: angled frame slugs

some cast steels are perfectly weldable with MIG but "cast steel" encompasses a wide range of materials

I'm surprised at your statement of 70% the travel speed, I would've guessed more like 1/3 to 1/2 in most cases. this of course has a big impact on gas consumption.

I agree that cups last forever if you don't throw them around, and tungstens last a VERY long time. a 1/16 tungsten costs a couple bucks and unless you're really awful you won't manage to go through it in a solid day's welding... and once you're better, it'll be way less than that. not enough cost to worry about vs gas (the big one), filler, power, etc.

for MIG to do stainless and have it stay stainless you need the right gas too, which is way more money than most gasses


I agree that the big one is the learning curve: with an hour or two of training, someone good with their hands can lay down somewhat tolerable MIG. the same with TIG will take at least several times as much training.

A steering damper dampens steering oscillations. If it starts to leak, it may become a steering dampener. There's no such thing as a dampner.

Bikes: naked SV1000 with all the possible bling, FE570, FS570, 450XCF SM trackbike
Junkie is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
These people High Fived Junkie!

Advertisement
These advertisements only appear for guests, register now for free to remove these ads!
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 12:06 AM   #22
mcantar
Fuck it, let's do it live

CF Pimp
mcantar's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
I support CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 07:32 AM
Location: Greater Denver Area, CO
Posts: 3,841
Flip Offs: 44
Flipped Off 21 Times in 20 Posts
mcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympus
Default Re: angled frame slugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
some cast steels are perfectly weldable with MIG but "cast steel" encompasses a wide range of materials

Generally speaking, castings really need a filler with a high nickel content. I've used 308L in a pinch. Yes, you can MIG it, just doesn't usually hold up too well.


I'm surprised at your statement of 70% the travel speed, I would've guessed more like 1/3 to 1/2 in most cases. this of course has a big impact on gas consumption.

I mean it's heavily dependent on the job of course... fitup, joint type, position, etc. But yeah, it's not that crazy of a number. Most people run too slow with TIG.

I agree that cups last forever if you don't throw them around, and tungstens last a VERY long time. a 1/16 tungsten costs a couple bucks and unless you're really awful you won't manage to go through it in a solid day's welding... and once you're better, it'll be way less than that. not enough cost to worry about vs gas (the big one), filler, power, etc.

for MIG to do stainless and have it stay stainless you need the right gas too, which is way more money than most gasses

You're right, I forgot about the gas. Same with aluminum. You'll want straight argon for both... most MIG tanks are filled with C25 (75% argon/25% C02). Expect to pay 1.5-2x the cost for straight vs C25.

I agree that the big one is the learning curve: with an hour or two of training, someone good with their hands can lay down somewhat tolerable MIG. the same with TIG will take at least several times as much training.

I'd say getting the basics down is pretty close to the same between both of them. The difference is with MIG that's all there is, with TIG you've got a lot of finesse and muscle memory to figure out to get from basics to making pretty welds.
..

Hypermotard 1100S the weight-shavening.
Bandit 1200 cafe/fighter that will never get finished at this rate.
Turbo Busa v2 2017 Buildoff.
Turbo Busa V1.2 2016 Buildoff.
Turbo Busa v1.1
919 Hornet build'n'flip, lotsa electrical diagnostic info in there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopie View Post
Everything should be turbo'd, and what the fuck is a budget?
mcantar is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
This user High Fived mcantar!
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 09:57 AM   #23
Junkie
re-tarded
CF Addict
Junkie's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 06:32 AM
Location: Alameda, CA
Posts: 1,176
Flip Offs: 3
Flipped Off 0 Times in 0 Posts
Junkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to all
Fighter of the Month 
Default Re: angled frame slugs

lots of people MIG stock LS exhaust manifolds for turbo applications and I rarely hear of problems, but I'm sure there are also plenty of alloys where it won't work for shit

I thought stainless MIG generally involved a trimix gas, but haven't done it myself. I don't see *that* much of a cost difference between C25 and Argon: the latter is maybe 20% more expensive. It's the trimix, with helium, that's expensive.

A steering damper dampens steering oscillations. If it starts to leak, it may become a steering dampener. There's no such thing as a dampner.

Bikes: naked SV1000 with all the possible bling, FE570, FS570, 450XCF SM trackbike
Junkie is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 12:47 PM   #24
remfanuk
Senior Member
Fighter
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Posts: 214
Flip Offs: 0
Flipped Off 0 Times in 0 Posts
remfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to allremfanuk is a name known to all
Default Re: angled frame slugs

thanks for the comprehensive responses guys. in all likelihood i may not be welding much beyond the current slow build. most likely going to use only for under tray, wiring and battery box...the odd bracket. i think if i were going to be into this for the long run then i would go with TIG but as i am only going to use it a handful of times maybe MIG is winning out? then the question is going for a new rig...about 170 or going for a used example with varying prices. hmmm....
remfanuk is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 12:56 PM   #25
Junkie
re-tarded
CF Addict
Junkie's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 06:32 AM
Location: Alameda, CA
Posts: 1,176
Flip Offs: 3
Flipped Off 0 Times in 0 Posts
Junkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to all
Fighter of the Month 
Default Re: angled frame slugs

at that budget I'd 100% go used.

I picked up my Lincoln 175HD, with a gas bottle, for $225. anything you can get new for that price will be awful quality, and then you'll need to buy/rent a bottle too.

A steering damper dampens steering oscillations. If it starts to leak, it may become a steering dampener. There's no such thing as a dampner.

Bikes: naked SV1000 with all the possible bling, FE570, FS570, 450XCF SM trackbike
Junkie is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
These people High Fived Junkie!
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 04:31 PM   #26
shinyribs
Is my bike ok?
shinyribs's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
I support CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 09:32 AM
Location: Paper Street
Posts: 14,734
Flip Offs: 58
Flipped Off 117 Times in 104 Posts
shinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too much
Fighter of the Month 
Default Re: angled frame slugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
some cast steels are perfectly weldable
Cast metals in general are weldable.

Cast iron is a pain in the ass because it's iron, not because it's cast.

Cast aluminum welds very easily. Cast steel seems pretty much the same to me.
shinyribs is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 04:48 PM   #27
shinyribs
Is my bike ok?
shinyribs's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
I support CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 09:32 AM
Location: Paper Street
Posts: 14,734
Flip Offs: 58
Flipped Off 117 Times in 104 Posts
shinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too muchshinyribs plays with their repper too much
Fighter of the Month 
Default Re: angled frame slugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantar View Post
That's just because you're slow.


I have a few thoughts on this...

A good TIG welder can run around 70% the speed of a MIG welder.
But really, speed shouldn't be a huge concern for anybody here. None of us are running production shops and tracking parts-per-hour, in this space it's about quality over quantity IMO. If a weld takes 10 minutes instead of 5, but looks way better... so what?

You can usually get away with running a bit less gas flow than with MIG. The weld heat is more concentrated and the part shouldn't be getting as hot as with other welding processes, and the slower travel speed means you have direct gas coverage over the specific area for longer.

Also re. speed... you have basically zero cleanup. No spatter to scrape/grind off, nothing catching on fire, etc. so the overall time spend from prep to cleanup is pretty close.

TIG allows for things like fusion welding where you don't use filler. Not always appropriate, but sometimes a good option and will save you the cost of filler if you are worried about that.

Less consumable costs, because less consumables. TIG cups are non-consumable vs. MIG cups which do wear down from repeated spatter and clean-up. Electrodes (tungsten) don't wear unless you fuck them up by dipping them or running too hot for the size, vs. MIG electrodes which wear out from burnback and just friction. The only actual consumables you have with TIG are the filler and the gas.
Not breaking shit is pretty easy too... just make a nice littler holder to hang your torch on and itll be nice and out of the way. But yes, tungsten is a brittle metal and TIG cups are class or ceramic, so they aren't as agreeable to being used as a hammer as a MIG gun is.

The learning curve is steeper, but not insurmountable by any means. Look at all the goons that have figured it out... if we can do it so can you. The thing about it is that TIG is a proper skill, while a trained monkey can run a MIG.

TIG isn't picky about weld prep. Materials are. You can weld picky materials with TIG, which is why it gets that rep.
With mild steel specifically, quality vs. cleanliness is a product of the filler rather than the process. Most mild steel filler you'll find for TIG is ER70-S2, most wire you see for MIG is ER70-S6. The S6 has more silicon and manganese, which helps the puddle flow better and more importantly helps carry contaminants out of the weld (the silicon does this, it's the glass stuff that develops on top of your weld). Buy some S6 filler rod or just use some lengths of MIG wire and your mild steel TIG weld will be as un-picky about prep and cleaning as your MIG is.

TIG can weld:
- mild steel
- stainless steel
- cast iron & cast steel
- aluminum
- titanium
- Inconel
- Hastelloy
- magnesium
- ceramics
- etc.
It also opens up the world of TIG brazing. You can join any metal to any other metal this way, even if they aren't weldable alloys.

MIG can weld:
- mild steel
- stainless steel, but not very well and only IF you buy a full spool of stainless filler
- aluminum, IF you have a push-pull gun and the right machine
Can also kinda-ish weld cast iron and cast steel, but not very well and it WILL break eventually unless you have special filler wire.



Get a TIG.
All welders need special filler wires/rods for certain alloys, so that's not a plus or minus for any machine. Matching filler rod to parent metal is just part of the welding process in general.

And yes, I am slow! But there's science and physics and shit at play I can't make metal wet/flow any faster than it's gonna just because I've decided I'm a good welder.

And you don't really need a special gun to weld aluminum with a MIG. Wire feed welders were invented because of aluminum welding. It was their main reason for existing. Since aluminum filler consumes so quickly it was a huge pain in the ass trying to weld with rods, so they developed the fed spools of wire. Keep those factory workers pumping out products.

The spool gun is just to keep the filler wire clean of other filler wire's left behind dust ( I know you know this, Mac). But not all MIG machines weld aluminum nicely- gun or not- it's just not that cut and dried. My MIG won't do aluminum worth a shit, my buddies welder lays out beautiful aluminum beads. There's so many in's and out's to welding machines...I'm not smart enough to know it all.
shinyribs is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
This user High Fived shinyribs!
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 05:36 PM   #28
mcantar
Fuck it, let's do it live

CF Pimp
mcantar's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
I support CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 07:32 AM
Location: Greater Denver Area, CO
Posts: 3,841
Flip Offs: 44
Flipped Off 21 Times in 20 Posts
mcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympus
Default Re: angled frame slugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by shinyribs View Post
All welders need special filler wires/rods for certain alloys, so that's not a plus or minus for any machine. Matching filler rod to parent metal is just part of the welding process in general.

And yes, I am slow! But there's science and physics and shit at play I can't make metal wet/flow any faster than it's gonna just because I've decided I'm a good welder.

And you don't really need a special gun to weld aluminum with a MIG. Wire feed welders were invented because of aluminum welding. It was their main reason for existing. Since aluminum filler consumes so quickly it was a huge pain in the ass trying to weld with rods, so they developed the fed spools of wire. Keep those factory workers pumping out products.

The spool gun is just to keep the filler wire clean of other filler wire's left behind dust ( I know you know this, Mac). But not all MIG machines weld aluminum nicely- gun or not- it's just not that cut and dried. My MIG won't do aluminum worth a shit, my buddies welder lays out beautiful aluminum beads. There's so many in's and out's to welding machines...I'm not smart enough to know it all.
You're not wrong re. having the right filler. The difference is that with MIG, stainless and alum are far less common than the various flavors of mild steel filler wire available, and between that and the amount you have to buy it in (because it's a spool instead of a few sticks) it ends up being more expensive than running a different metal with TIG.

Amperage, gas flow rate and type, tungsten grind angle and truncation, tungsten size, standoff from the weld, etc. all play into it. Run hotter, lets you move faster, lets you weld for less time, lets you use less gaas.

I don't know of the history of wire feeders, but contamination from other metal in the hose liner is only part of it. The larger issue is that aluminum is generally too soft to be pushed through a long MIG hose, so you either have a spool gun where the spool is, obviously, on the gun (I hate these), or you have a push-pull gun with a dedicated hose that does what it sounds like.

Hypermotard 1100S the weight-shavening.
Bandit 1200 cafe/fighter that will never get finished at this rate.
Turbo Busa v2 2017 Buildoff.
Turbo Busa V1.2 2016 Buildoff.
Turbo Busa v1.1
919 Hornet build'n'flip, lotsa electrical diagnostic info in there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopie View Post
Everything should be turbo'd, and what the fuck is a budget?
mcantar is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
This user High Fived mcantar!
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 05:37 PM   #29
mcantar
Fuck it, let's do it live

CF Pimp
mcantar's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
I support CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 07:32 AM
Location: Greater Denver Area, CO
Posts: 3,841
Flip Offs: 44
Flipped Off 21 Times in 20 Posts
mcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympusmcantar sits atop olympus
Default Re: angled frame slugs

@remfanuk buy used, no question. Zero reason to be buying new, you'll be far better off getting a better used machine than a shitty new one.

Hypermotard 1100S the weight-shavening.
Bandit 1200 cafe/fighter that will never get finished at this rate.
Turbo Busa v2 2017 Buildoff.
Turbo Busa V1.2 2016 Buildoff.
Turbo Busa v1.1
919 Hornet build'n'flip, lotsa electrical diagnostic info in there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopie View Post
Everything should be turbo'd, and what the fuck is a budget?
mcantar is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
This user High Fived mcantar!
Old Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum Post 10-10-2019, 05:45 PM   #30
Junkie
re-tarded
CF Addict
Junkie's Avatar on CustomFighters.com Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum
Local Time: 06:32 AM
Location: Alameda, CA
Posts: 1,176
Flip Offs: 3
Flipped Off 0 Times in 0 Posts
Junkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to allJunkie is a name known to all
Fighter of the Month 
Default Re: angled frame slugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by shinyribs View Post
Cast metals in general are weldable.

Cast iron is a pain in the ass because it's iron, not because it's cast.

Cast aluminum welds very easily. Cast steel seems pretty much the same to me.
cast is typically dirtier than extruded or cold rolled, and there are alloys that can't reasonably be welded (as is true of extrusions/rolled)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinyribs View Post
All welders need special filler wires/rods for certain alloys, so that's not a plus or minus for any machine. Matching filler rod to parent metal is just part of the welding process in general.

And yes, I am slow! But there's science and physics and shit at play I can't make metal wet/flow any faster than it's gonna just because I've decided I'm a good welder.

And you don't really need a special gun to weld aluminum with a MIG. Wire feed welders were invented because of aluminum welding. It was their main reason for existing. Since aluminum filler consumes so quickly it was a huge pain in the ass trying to weld with rods, so they developed the fed spools of wire. Keep those factory workers pumping out products.

The spool gun is just to keep the filler wire clean of other filler wire's left behind dust ( I know you know this, Mac). But not all MIG machines weld aluminum nicely- gun or not- it's just not that cut and dried. My MIG won't do aluminum worth a shit, my buddies welder lays out beautiful aluminum beads. There's so many in's and out's to welding machines...I'm not smart enough to know it all.
a spool gun also feeds better: since aluminum wire is soft, you're more likely to have feed problems in the liner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantar View Post
You're not wrong re. having the right filler. The difference is that with MIG, stainless and alum are far less common than the various flavors of mild steel filler wire available, and between that and the amount you have to buy it in (because it's a spool instead of a few sticks) it ends up being more expensive than running a different metal with TIG.

Amperage, gas flow rate and type, tungsten grind angle and truncation, tungsten size, standoff from the weld, etc. all play into it. Run hotter, lets you move faster, lets you weld for less time, lets you use less gaas.

I don't know of the history of wire feeders, but contamination from other metal in the hose liner is only part of it. The larger issue is that aluminum is generally too soft to be pushed through a long MIG hose, so you either have a spool gun where the spool is, obviously, on the gun (I hate these), or you have a push-pull gun with a dedicated hose that does what it sounds like.
you can get away with running it in a normal MIG setup if the liner is in good shape and you're especially careful about avoiding tighter bends on the lead

I can't imagine anyone here has experience with pushing rope

A steering damper dampens steering oscillations. If it starts to leak, it may become a steering dampener. There's no such thing as a dampner.

Bikes: naked SV1000 with all the possible bling, FE570, FS570, 450XCF SM trackbike
Junkie is offline   Reply With Quote on our streetfighter motorcycle forum
Reply

  Custom Fighters - Custom Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum > Technical Section > Heavy Metal

Bookmarks

Thank you for viewing angled frame slugs in the Heavy Metal section of our streetfighter motorcycle forum. I hope you found it useful!


Thread Tools

Forum Jump

Heavy Metal - angled frame slugs on Custom Fighters Streetfighter Motorcycle Forum

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:32 AM.



Powered by vBulletin Version 4.20
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.