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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I've been trolling around the wild interweb and it's looking like swapping to an MPFI (Multi-Port Fuel Injection) setup from carbs is actually pretty straight forward. Many of you will probably argue that, however hear out the story.

Not sure if anyone has experience with MicroSquirt ECM setups but that seems like they way I'll probably be going this winter when I swap my FZ750 over to MPFI.

It looks like all that's needed are TPS (throttle position sensor), MAP (manifold pressure sensor), ECT (engine coolant temp sensor), IAT (intake air temp sensor), throttle body, injectors and a manifold to put them in.

I'm figuring that the ECM (which will also take over my ignition, negating my OEM DIS ignition setup) at $350-400, plus injectors, fuel rail, manifold, throttle body and the few sensors my bike doesn't have will run less than $1000.

If anyone has any experience with a swap like this, let me know. Like I said, this is probably going to be part of the winter project, but I'm gather as much knowledge (and probably some of the parts) as I can before I get started.

The most difficult parts look to be the manifold fabrication and the final tuning of the ECM to get the results I'm looking for. I'll throw up a few links to the information I've found so far and will keep this updated as I learn/do more.






Links:
Basic Instructions

Wiring Instructions
 

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hate us cuz they ainus
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My suggestion are, first, if youve never used ms before stick to fuel only till you sure you have it tuned good. The other download what ever tuning program you plan on using now and start playing with cuz the gui in them is not always clear
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Already have the tuning software for it (I currently use it for cars that are already injected) so that's no issue.

I'm going to try to get the ignition setup to work as well so I only have one, much never computer system rather than a new system for the injection and the old, non-tunable system for ignition. Like I said, it'll be a winter project so I can afford some time to mess with it to get it working just right.
 

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yes i know exactly what megasquirt is. my fb rx7 had a fuel only msI, i have used msII quite a few times and was one of the people that got in on the first batch of msIII daughter cards. and im not trying to scare you away from doing your project either. i love megasquirt and think more people should check it out but the way they market it sometimes makes using/tuning it sound alot easier then it is and based on your list of parts you think you will need i fear you may be biting off a little more then you can handle all at once. now the reason why i say start with fuel only is because chances are there will be no base maps for your bike. which means not only will you have to build your main fuel table from scratch, but you also have to enter meaningful values into the cset, cranking tables and decel table, you have to be able to account for the fuel that drops out of suspension in the intake runners so on and so on. nothing is stopping you from adding timing control later after you get the fueling sorted. dont forget you will need a crank and cam trigger wheels that are compatible with ms too many motorcycle ones are not
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I know itll be a pretty big project, thus the winter build. Im literally tearing the whole bike back down over winter to redo a lot of little things including building a new wiring harness.
The fuel maps will be tricky but thats, IMO, part of the fun with these types of projects. Like I said, I'm planning to also run the ignition off the MicroSquirt to eliminate the old CDI and keep the wiring a little neater, not having to run CKP signals to two location.
You said you ran MSII/MSIII? Do you know what the differences are? It looks like MicroSquirt runs less sensors due to the smaller board. Like I said, Im still trying to figure out just what I need for the conversion. I've got a basic plan but am still open to any new info or suggestions. Do you have any kind of resources you used to run your setup? I have tinkered on several injection setups but this will be the first one I build from scratch. It'll very much be an experiment but im just tired of trying to adjust the carbs every month (or worse, getting someone else to work on it) and im hoping to use it as a starting point for future conversions.
 

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holy crap! lol, have you read the megamanual yet? make it your new bible. especially if you plan to get it done in 3 or 4 months.

http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

seriously read it.... all of it, then read it again. then go play with which ever tunining software you chose, and come back and read it 3 more times
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ive been reading through it already. Haha. I'm playing with the tuning software and am getting a game plan down for what parts will be used and how. As long as I can get the bike running after winter, I'll be happy.
 

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pics and info if ya get this started .GL bigcomplex projects are a bich,but if yer determined it can happen:thumbsup:
 

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please keep us updated on how this works out for you. i have been very interested in the MS since i first read about it and am also very interested in doing FI on my fj
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It's definitely happening. Hoping to start ordering parts and fabricating components next month. I'll be posting a basic list of what my game plan is by the end of this month. I'm excited to see how much this can improve on an older bike...it could be a means to making the classic looking bikes I like into something I actually would want to ride regularly!
 

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I'm excited to see how much this can improve on an older bike...it could be a means to making the classic looking bikes I like into something I actually would want to ride regularly!
Don't mean to be a debbie downer, but don't expect much. Carb to efi was available for the Vmax as a semi-production kit from wild bros. They spent a shitload of time(as in years) tuning, testing, endless dyno runs, ect, and in reality, it ran worse than a set of stock carbs in good tune. I knew a couple people who bought the kit and all of them ended up putting the carbs back on. For the huge expense (and time) of the EFI kit, you could invest in motor work that would get you big, consistent gains....still on the stock carbs.

I worked on a modern skidoo 4 stroke snowmobile as part of an engineering project, and converted it to be fully automatic flex fuel capable to e85 just like a modern car. Obviously this involved extra fueling parameters, maps, and an aftermarket ECU. Now this was a EFI engine stock and I was able to reuse almost all the sensors....that's a lot of work saved right there. We were also able to run the stock and aftermarket ECUs in "parallel" and "record" values into the aftermarket, essentially recreating the stock map in the new ECU. Again, huge effort saved.

After 4 months of calculations, mapping, and long nights fiddling with it on a dyno, we got it running "almost" as good as it was stock on any fuel. It also had a new silenced intake, catalyst equipped exhaust, new header, ect. This was with individual o2 sensors per cylinder and an "auto tuning" ECU. No, it doesn't auto tune. It gets you kinda sorta in the ballpark. To really get that smooth driveability you expect from an EFI engine, it's a LOT of trial and error and brain melting math.

We met with engineers from Bombardier that designed the engine we used, and the level of analysis they use to model flow and calculate fueling made our head spin. From those extremely complex and precise calculations, they still go through dozens of revisions to the fuel maps until the "final" tune is accepted. OEMs pay a lot of very smart people a very large amount of money to figure it out.

If you're in it for the challenge or experience then by all means, it's nothing if not a learning experience, but if you're going into this thinking it'll be straightforward and give huge results, sorry, it just won't. A full exhaust system, jet kit, and couple hours on a dyno will give you far better results for far less money. Even when OEMs update one of their engines from carb to EFI the gains are minimal. The R1 gained 5hp when Yamaha updated it to EFI, and maybe a mpg or two.

PS. We used 3 different MS2-Pro boxes from megasquirt and all of them died within a couple months. Finally got a motec and had no more issues, and it was much more user friendly to configure. The megasquirt is cheap for a reason, and we are certainly not the only ones who have had quality issues with them- their forums are riddled with people having their boxes melt coils, fry sensors, dead units out of the box, dead inputs/outputs, ect, all of which we experienced.
 

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I agreed with you 100% razed. Right up to your last statement. Yes ms is cheap but its cheap because A) its open source, B) it in perpetual beta mode, and C) because its not aplication specific for the most part. Which as you stated makes it a shit ton of work for the end user. I think most of the time problems with the I/o ports and the like can be traced back to builder error (it damn sure aint easy to build one), using the wrong firmware for your application, or some one buying an ebay clone mother board
diy autotune is the only place I ever bought anything ms related amd I never had a problem with their ms prebuilt or in kit form
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Power gains are not the main reason for the conversion in this instance. While I would like to see a power bump from this swap, its mainly going to be an experimental platform to see A) if I can actually do a conversion like this and B) if this system can be used to enhance the bike at all.

While I again know that its going to be a ton of work, especially figuring base maps and the fine tuning, its in part for the simple challenge of it. I'm not a fan of carbs for the most part, so if I can use this as a test bed to develop to ability to convert other vehicles, it will be well worth the time, money and effort.

As for the fallibility of the MS systems, I've seen plenty of success from others using the system and I am not too worried about the system failing. Even if the MS board were to fail and the injection setup becomes to much of a hassle, I can always put the bike back to the way it was.

The project is going to be pretty intensive and probably a bit expensive as well but it's much more fun in my mind to have something off the wall bonkers than just leaving good enough alone. Isn't that part of the allure of fighters anyway??
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
As promised, here is the basis list of what im planning to use to build the electronic control systems in no real order:
MicroSquirt computer and harness
LS based cable actuated throttle body
Twin inlet intake manifold
R1 injectors and custom fuel rail
GM MAP sensor
VRS signal converter
Bosch 200 ignition trigger
Replace ignition coils, wires, etc.
IAT sensor
ECT sensor
O2 sensor
Knock sensor
External air temp and BARO sensors
New tank with high pressure pump and return style regulator
High pressure fuel lines


That's the basic list. It will probably change as I go through the build but it should be most of what I need to build the system.
 
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